Lauren Southern to speak in NZ

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Awrrr
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#2069512 7-Aug-2018 19:52

For those who keep their minds in straitjackets, it probably won't make any difference that Jacinda Ardern and Chris Hipkins have both spoken out against the decision to prevent Don Brash from speaking. But don't let any facts get in the way of your prejudices. Your minds are made up and it just has to be a left-wing conspiracy. Somehow.

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Fred99

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#2069513 7-Aug-2018 19:54

freitasm:

Isn't that incredible Trump and his supporters call all other people "snowflakes" but are themselves the first ones to cry "witch hunt"?

Or at least 278 (to date) tweets to date from Trump - arguably the most powerful "leader of the free world" - directly attacking the media.

MikeAqua

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#2069530 7-Aug-2018 20:23

Fred99:
MikeAqua:

It's part of the lefty play-book in NZ to personally attack your opponents and always has been.

You've confirmed my suspicions that you're not really interested in debate, but in finding opportunities to espouse your own anti-left views, even resorting to cherry-picking examples of extreme behaviour which is not the norm - in a lame attempt to prove a point.

I suspect that much of what you read confirms your suspicions. Quite possibly before you read it.

Mike

Fred99

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#2069533 7-Aug-2018 20:46

MikeAqua:
Fred99:

MikeAqua:

It's part of the lefty play-book in NZ to personally attack your opponents and always has been.

You've confirmed my suspicions that you're not really interested in debate, but in finding opportunities to espouse your own anti-left views, even resorting to cherry-picking examples of extreme behaviour which is not the norm - in a lame attempt to prove a point.

I suspect that much of what you read confirms your suspicions. Quite possibly before you read it.

I'm not fond of whatboutism. You triggered me.

shk292

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#2069535 7-Aug-2018 21:02

It's interesting that Don Brash is frequently labelled as a racist, but his most famous speech esposued the principle of equality for all regardless of race, and he is vehemently against any form of race-based political representation. Perhaps someone could link to a racist statement he has made?

Similarly, the two Canadians get labelled as fascist, when one of the elements of fascism is violent suppression of political opposition. I don't think they have ever done that, but are frequently the subject of violent, or incipiently violent, attempts to suppress their point of view. They are undoubtedly right-wing, and Molyneux is arguably racist (although he claims his "hate facts" are indeed facts backed up by scientific research), but I think fascist is stretching the point. They seem to be trying to protect the Western/Christian lifestyle and political system against external influence, which arguably is a mirror of what happens in Muslim countries (see for example Canadian diplomats being expelled recently for a relatively bland political opinion). They are intolerant of "gender diversity", but not to the point of arbitrarily executing homosexuals, which happens in some Muslim countries. Personally I think they should be allowed to express their views, and arrested and charged if the way they do this is in breach of NZ law. Similarly, I think those that breach NZ law in "protesting" against them (or for example, the NZDIA forum or TPPA) should also be charged. Does that make me a fascist?

Rikkitic

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#2069575 7-Aug-2018 22:09

shk292:

Similarly, I think those that breach NZ law in "protesting" against them (or for example, the NZDIA forum or TPPA) should also be charged. Does that make me a fascist?

No, it makes you dangerously uninformed, or possibly intentionally subversive. People keep popping up here trying to argue that this or that isn't all that bad after all, or everyone has a right to express an opinion, or why don't people just give those poor misunderstood a$$holes a chance? It is like the alt-right misinformation campaigns on Facebook. There is nothing to argue here. The Canadians are fascists, though they try to disguise it with 'reasonable-sounding' phraseology, which an unfortunate number of people here seem to fall for. They and those who defend them use fake arguments to make them seem less awful, for example, arguing that some Islamic countries do worse things to dissenters and sexual minorities than the Canadians would. What the F kind of logic is that? We should suddenly feel all warm and fuzzy for white fascists because Muslim extremists may be worse? That is not just criminally stupid reasoning, it is evil.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

gzt

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#2069578 7-Aug-2018 22:18

Rikkitic: For those who keep their minds in straitjackets, it probably won't make any difference that Jacinda Ardern and Chris Hipkins have both spoken out against the decision to prevent Don Brash from speaking. But don't let any facts get in the way of your prejudices. Your minds are made up and it just has to be a left-wing conspiracy. Somehow.

I missed that but anyway I'll add to those points.

The centre left government raised no objections to the two speakers travelling to new Zealand. The well known left of center commentator Chris Trotter was an initiator of the free speech coalition. Another well known nz left blogger Martyn Bradbury has recorded his support of the second venue booking by the pair.

I have to say Southern and Molyneaux themselves could have easily waited a bit for the free speech coalition urgent legal action to complete but they seemed to ignore that for some reason..

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Fred99

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#2069579 7-Aug-2018 22:23

gzt:
I have to say Southern and Molyneaux themselves could have easily waited a bit for the free speech coalition urgent legal action to complete but they seemed to ignore that for some reason..

... because then they'd have been mainly ignored. Mugs are us - but OTOH they're only a tiny part of a large movement that's already here.

Fred99

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#2069580 7-Aug-2018 22:23

shk292:

Similarly, the two Canadians get labelled as fascist, when one of the elements of fascism is violent suppression of political opposition. I don't think they have ever done that, but are frequently the subject of violent, or incipiently violent, attempts to suppress their point of view.

Of course they don't (although Southern came close) They are affiliated with groups that do - and I've never heard them condemn them. They are fascists. That's what fascist leaders do.

shk292:

They are undoubtedly right-wing, and Molyneux is arguably racist (although he claims his "hate facts" are indeed facts backed up by scientific research), but I think fascist is stretching the point.

He's absolutely a racist. He cites research by Prof Flynn from Otago (The "Flynn Effect") to justify his scientific racism. Prof Flynn comments "attempts to link IQ squarely to race are disturbing" "I've never seen him in the literature as having made any supplementary points to the points Jensen made, and his reputation is such that one suspects he oversimplifies the debate. You have a limited amount of time in your life, and if you look at what every nut says about every issue, you'll never have time to do anything else."

It's filthy racist BS pseudo-science. It's also what fascists did - precisely.

Molyneux says that Australia is "the only place that doesn't have a treaty with indigenous people because you couldn't because aboriginal people were at the lowest rung of civilisation."

Filthy scumbag.

shk292:

They seem to be trying to protect the Western/Christian lifestyle and political system against external influence.

Well they're believers in white genocide conspiracy theory, and as a counter to that want a united front of (mainly) white nations to counter what they argue is a threat. Why do you think they came to Aus and NZ?

shk292:

Personally I think they should be allowed to express their views, and arrested and charged if the way they do this is in breach of NZ law.

Sure I agree. But I wouldn't allow them a work visa issued for the purpose of them conducting public meetings disseminating their views, as it's a privilege not a right to enter NZ to work, and IMO they fail to meet character requirements.

I've deleted whataboutism comments related to islam. Yes it's extremely bad, but from what I've witnessed - a regression from more tolerant secularism to shariah and intolerance, the lesson I get is that a reaction to a perceived threat by forming a pan-western (more or less white) Judaeo-Christian alliance of less tolerant, less secular society based on fear of "them" - is dooming us to the same fate. And/or a real holy war.

gzt

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#2069615 7-Aug-2018 22:37

Fred99: I've deleted whataboutism comments related to islam

I doubt it. I think you mean you chose not to quote that part of the comment in your reply.

Fred99

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#2069621 7-Aug-2018 22:50

gzt:
Fred99: I've deleted whataboutism comments related to islam

I doubt it. I think you mean you chose not to quote that part of the comment in your reply.

Was "whataboutism" IMO "They are intolerant of "gender diversity", but not to the point of arbitrarily executing homosexuals, which happens in some Muslim countries".

Shariah and intolerance in some Muslim countries is an abomination, but not particularly relevant. As I understand it, they're not particularly homophobic, just opposed to the concept of gender diversity labels and legislation. You're right though - I chose not to include it. It was hardly worth commenting on, they're just trolling with it mainly IMO.

Fred99

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#2069638 8-Aug-2018 08:21

shk292:

Perhaps someone could link to a racist statement he has made?

On immigration, when asked : "So who are the ideal immigrants?"

"British immigrants fit in here very well. My own ancestry is all British. New Zealand values are British values, derived from centuries of struggle since Magna Carta. Those things make New Zealand the society it is. So, people who bring in those values because they imbibe them with their mothers' milk, almost by definition make good immigrants."

And?

"I concede that some of the other immigrants we brought in, from the Balkans, from Asia in the gold-rush days, turned out to be very solid citizens.

"After the war we had Dutch immigrants who were also very good because they were determined to work hard."

So that could be "culture" as a euphemism for "race", whatever. He's making broad value judgements of the "quality" of immigrants based on culture/race.

He'd have probably best kept his opinions to himself on that, as he's consistently campaigned on removal of reference to race/culture in legislation, then clearly he'd have to be opposed to selection of immigrants on racial/cultural grounds - or he'd be not only open himself up to accusations of racism, but that would be hypocrisy.

kryptonjohn

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#2069643 8-Aug-2018 08:28

Lias:

I don't agree that she is a racist or a fascist, but even if she is, she has EVERY right to come here and say her piece. You don't have to like her views, and you are absolutely entitled to repudiate them and decry her saying them, but she has the right to hold them, and to talk to others about them. If you believe someone should be prevented from expressing their opinion, no matter how much you dislike it, then I'm afraid YOU are the fascist.

Agree with Lias and would extend further that it is *essential* that people like Southern & co be allowed to speak. That way we get to decide for ourselves whether they're racist idiots instead of having someone like Fred99 decide that for us. It also keeps the actual dangerous people visible rather than underground. If there are hateful dangerous people preparing for war I'd like as many people to be aware of this as possible.

The danger of having others control our freedoms is far, far worse than the danger of some idiots coming here and spouting nonsense from a soap box. Nobody should get to say who I can listen to and who I cannot.

Fred99

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#2069650 8-Aug-2018 08:39

kryptonjohn:

someone like Fred99 decide that for us.

I suggest you read what I've said - which was that if in the country, then they should be allowed the right to speak. I have said that they should have been looked at harder in terms of granting them work visas - as in my opinion they fail to meet "good character" grounds to be granted that privilege. Yes - I'd not have granted them visas. That was in reference to Southern in particular - for inciting illegal vigilante actions against NGOs performing humanitarian rescue work in the Mediterranean.

What gets up my goat most is that they are fascists, yet there's been a procession of people arguing that they aren't. That's insane.

kryptonjohn

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#2069654 8-Aug-2018 08:48

Fred99:

kryptonjohn:

someone like Fred99 decide that for us.

I suggest you read what I've said - which was that if in the country, then they should be allowed the right to speak. I have said that they should have been looked at harder in terms of granting them work visas - as in my opinion they fail to meet "good character" grounds to be granted that privilege. Yes - I'd not have granted them visas. That was in reference to Southern in particular - for inciting illegal vigilante actions against NGOs performing humanitarian rescue work in the Mediterranean.

What gets up my goat most is that they are fascists, yet there's been a procession of people arguing that they aren't. That's insane.

Fair enough. My issue is purely with those that want to decide whether they can make idiots of themselves. It's worse when they sneakily do this behind false premises of security etc such as Mayor Goff and now vice Chancellor Thomas. They're picking and choosing who gets a platform. It's not for them to be the arbiters.

Apologies if I misrepresented your position.

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