Moment of Truth?

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683 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 132

#1130650 17-Sep-2014 13:18

If there are people living here in New Zealand who threaten my life or livelihood, then I endorse any Government which "spies" on them.

testha

116 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 52

#1130685 17-Sep-2014 13:50

networkn:
testha:
Geektastic:

"Is the state allowed to usurp rights without consultation?"

To believe that the answer to this is no is to live in a fairy tale land - which many seem to do here, assumedly because genuine terrorist atrocities have never happened in NZ (ignore Rainbow Warrior, which many around the world applauded)

The state is the law. The state can - and will - do whatever it pleases regardless of statute if it deems it necessary. Why do you think, for example, the US has black budgets and black programs? In some instances it is for legitimate secrecy. In others it is because they are operating outside the law but consider that they need to do so.

If you believe otherwise, you do not know what 'power' actually means in the political sense.

Generally NZ has avoided such clandestine government activity and significant threat due to remote location etc. I sincerely doubt that will remain the case ad infinitum. The oddity is that the more attention and scrutiny you place the security services under, the more likely they are to act without the law because it becomes too hard to do it within the law.

There are no reasons to reduce peoples rights without consultation. None.

And I dont live in a fairy land. I just happen to enjoy the freedoms I have and rather not give them up for some secret reasons.

The least the government can do is ask the people if they would be willing to do so. I am not, I have seen the other side. Feel free to ask me how it was, I can tell you some nice stories what it means if a government has access to all the information about its people.

I said it before and will say it again, I would rather live with the very low risk of a potential terror attack if that means that democratic values will remain.

Easy to say when you haven't been exposed to one or lost family or friends in one. I think the 9/11 families feel somewhat differently.

It is easy to say that mass surveilance doesnt hurt if you have never been exposed to it. I have, the Stasi was real and made my family and friends suffer. Thousands of people died in East Germany from the government millions suffered in different ways. And I do feel different about it. Dont forget this was 25 years ago, with the digital revolution well on its way it is way easier now. Much less effort needed.

I mentioned before that 6000 people die each year of heart disease and Diabetes in NZ. Is preventing these deaths not worth the same effort? Arent these families suffering? You can watch http://tvnz.co.nz/nigel-latta/s1-ep6-video-6060553 for more info.

No matter where people die, it is always a sad affair. I just dont like to see this event being constantly used as an excuse to get a surveilance state going. If you keep interfering with other countries for your own gain and bully your way around the world you will just fuel the rage that spawns terrorism. Why not try some respect and be nice to each other?

Zippity

683 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 132

#1130688 17-Sep-2014 13:54

Glenn Greenwald is a fraud

What say you?

JimmyC

726 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 82

#1130689 17-Sep-2014 13:55

ajobbins: "Prime Minister John Key acknowledged today that NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden's claim that New Zealanders' data is accessible through the controversial XKeyscore system "may well be right"."

Source

Is that a surprise to anyone? It's used by the NSA who would have data from NZ, and by virtue of the 5 Eyes program it would be accessible by the GCSB either locally or via the NSA.

XKeyscore is essentially a search engine. On its own it is not proof of mass surveillance.

tehgerbil

1113 posts

Uber Geek
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#1130709 17-Sep-2014 14:30

Ok, so we can agree the "Moment of Truth" has become the "Moment of fail" in terms of the explosive expose all but implied by KDC.

The argument is now "How dare my government spy on me under the guise of national security?" Actually, it's not your government, and you really can't be outraged about it. 99% of your internet traffic goes through America. America has openly and freely announced they screen all traffic that goes across their shores. So American already spies on you, and has done for years.

What KDC and Snowden now want you to believe is while the America have a system in place, and have streamlined the process, the GCSB are also spying on you. Why would they if America already does?

I think this statement summarizes the absurd nature of his own argument:
[Edward Snowden] “Ask yourself: why do analysts have a checkbox on a top secret system that hides the results of mass surveillance in New Zealand if there is no mass surveillance in New Zealand?” .

So this traffic that's captured absolutely cannot have been captured by ANYONE else other than GCSB? Seriously? We know the US loves to monitor everything that they have their fingers in, and this
means kiwi traffic as well, so it's 100% not possible this monitoring is actually being performed by America. It MUST be the GCSB. Yip, absolutely. No doubt in my mind. Yeah freaking right.

Look, I'll presume for a second everyone on this thread reads, and I'll presume they're not idiots, so you know America's monitor all their traffic. Is it really that much of a stretch to presume this NZ based information is ALL captured by the states? Why does it need to be the GSCB as everyone is implying?

John Key has admitted the GSCB can ACCESS this information, but until Snowden can prove otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, it's being captured by America, who already have the resources and have openly admitted to doing so!

Batman

Mad Scientist
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#1130731 17-Sep-2014 14:56

of course the govt spies. no one's ever denied that. denial of "Mass Surveillance" is what being discussed! gosh ;p

yes they are trained in XKEYSCORE, no one's ever denied that too. again, denial of Mass Surveillance is being discussed.

3 fellas say yes. NZ says no. NZ does not need to prove anything. the burden of proof lies on the 3 fellas. i'm still waiting.

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Lyderies

266 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 67

#1130737 17-Sep-2014 14:57

networkn:
testha:
Geektastic:

"Is the state allowed to usurp rights without consultation?"

To believe that the answer to this is no is to live in a fairy tale land - which many seem to do here, assumedly because genuine terrorist atrocities have never happened in NZ (ignore Rainbow Warrior, which many around the world applauded)

The state is the law. The state can - and will - do whatever it pleases regardless of statute if it deems it necessary. Why do you think, for example, the US has black budgets and black programs? In some instances it is for legitimate secrecy. In others it is because they are operating outside the law but consider that they need to do so.

If you believe otherwise, you do not know what 'power' actually means in the political sense.

Generally NZ has avoided such clandestine government activity and significant threat due to remote location etc. I sincerely doubt that will remain the case ad infinitum. The oddity is that the more attention and scrutiny you place the security services under, the more likely they are to act without the law because it becomes too hard to do it within the law.

There are no reasons to reduce peoples rights without consultation. None.

And I dont live in a fairy land. I just happen to enjoy the freedoms I have and rather not give them up for some secret reasons.

The least the government can do is ask the people if they would be willing to do so. I am not, I have seen the other side. Feel free to ask me how it was, I can tell you some nice stories what it means if a government has access to all the information about its people.

I said it before and will say it again, I would rather live with the very low risk of a potential terror attack if that means that democratic values will remain.

Easy to say when you haven't been exposed to one or lost family or friends in one. I think the 9/11 families feel somewhat differently.

We all know the US government did 9/11 and used it to gain access to the oil fields

I'm going to noob myself past judgement

DravidDavid

1907 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 305

#1130755 17-Sep-2014 15:15

Lyderies:

We all know the US government did 9/11 and used it to gain access to the oil fields

BurningBeard

1030 posts

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#1130770 17-Sep-2014 15:27

Lyderies: We all know the US government did 9/11 and used it to gain access to the oil fields

Super real troo news. I done seen a YouTube video.

My very metal Doctor Who theme

khull

1245 posts

Uber Geek
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#1130778 17-Sep-2014 15:41

The thing that stuck me is how fuzzy and fluffy left wing politics can be. Lots of allegations but hard to back up with evidence - while they are serious and implications vast, all I have seen is heavily redacted presentation slides and a whole lot of chatter of how people and Government should/should not be behaving. That is not to detract or make less of the situation, but presently not possible to have an objective and rational conversation.

Batman

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#1130781 17-Sep-2014 15:43

as you type JK has admitted the NSA could be spying on us, but it has nothing to do with the GCSB, and that there is no mass surveillance by NZ.

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JimmyC

726 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 82

#1130792 17-Sep-2014 16:11

joker97: as you type JK has admitted the NSA could be spying on us, but it has nothing to do with the GCSB, and that there is no mass surveillance by NZ.

I wouldn't say it's an admission as such, rather he's just stating the obvious. No doubt this will be spun 7 different ways by the press but hopefully it'll just continue to keep Winston out of the headlines for another couple of days.

testha

116 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 52

#1130814 17-Sep-2014 16:30

Tonight, Glenn Greenwald versus the Prime Minister.

https://www.facebook.com/CampbellLiveNZ?hc_location=timeline

That's gonna be interesting.

Ragnor

8279 posts

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#1130843 17-Sep-2014 17:18

JimmyC:

Is that a surprise to anyone? It's used by the NSA who would have data from NZ, and by virtue of the 5 Eyes program it would be accessible by the GCSB either locally or via the NSA.

XKeyscore is essentially a search engine. On its own it is not proof of mass surveillance.

Does NZ supply only lawfully intercepted data based on warrants to 5 eyes or does it just supply everything these days?

I'd wager supplying everything (fixed line, mobile and internet data) is part of the criteria of membership these days, hence the proposal for project speargun and implementation of cortex in the first place.

The the minister in charge of the SIS and GCSB's is supposed to deny everything and keep everything as secret as possible, so of course JK is lying... he'd be doing a bad job if he wasn't.

At the end of the day it's the same old problem there has always been with spy agencies.... who watches the watchmen?

JimmyC

726 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 82

#1130893 17-Sep-2014 18:28

Ragnor:

Does NZ supply only lawfully intercepted data based on warrants to 5 eyes or does it just supply everything these days?

Good question. From a purely technical perspective, and fwiw, I do believe the argument that the GCSB does not have the capacity to capture the scale of information some are concerned about. However, I feel JK gets around the GCSB doing wholesale surveillance issue because I'm pretty sure the NSA will be capturing as much as possible anyway. From there, and if you believe JK, the GCSB will subsequently have access to that information on the basis of a valid warrant.

Ragnor:

At the end of the day it's the same old problem there has always been with spy agencies.... who watches the watchmen?

Agreed. The alternative is we get a politically neutral body set up, independent of any Govt of the day. But then who appoints them, who do they answer to, and who checks their checks? If the public know everything our intelligence agencies do, there is zero point in having such intelligence agencies. It might be nice to think that's the way it could\should work but it ain't going to happen.

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