UK prime minister Boris Johnson

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#2620321 11-Dec-2020 20:54

Most of the people I talk to (on both sides) just want it to be over and done with. The decision is made so just get on with it.

neb

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#2620335 11-Dec-2020 22:14

Rikkitic:
I have lived most of my life in Europe (Holland) and Britain. My perspective comes from that experience.

I think if you talked to a number of British people today, they would probably regret their decision to leave.

Another thing is that when you join a club, you agree to abide by the rules of the club in order to enjoy the benefits, including some rules that you may not agree with. Brexit is a classic examples of someone wanting to have their cake and eat it too [*]: We went all the benefits of EU membership, but want to choose which rules we abide by [+].

[*] Which I've always found to be a somewhat stupid saying. The Italians do it much better, "avere la botte piena e la moglie ubriaca", to have a full barrel and a drunk wife.

[+] Prendi una decisione, dammit!

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#2620490 12-Dec-2020 13:45

Rikkitic:

Handle9:

There is certainly a racist element within the Brexit group but there's a whole lot more to consider than just a bunch of racists. There is a case for the EU being grossly undemocratic.

How do you define 'undemocratic'? I am from the EU and I never experienced it that way.

How about when the EU converted from a trading bloc to a political union without ever asking the citizens if that was what they wanted.

Imagine if New Zealand joined a trading bloc (say the TPP) and 20 years later that organization become a political unit rather than just a trading bloc and the NZ Government never bothered asking you if that's what you wanted, because they know you would say no, but just went ahead and joined up anyway.

Then regulations start arriving from the headquarters, say Seoul, Tokyo or Canberra. Some of them might say that you need to reduce your dairy output as you are too efficient and other exporters withing the bloc are suffering or you must accept any number of workers from other parts of the bloc even if you don't have jobs for them and they become part of the cost of your social security system

I don't think most Kiwis would poke up with that for very long without voicing their objections.

For the vast majority of Brits it is nothing to do with immigration (Britain is the most multi-cultural country in the world apparently) or 'ruling the waves' or, god forbid, make Britain Great Again. That is a false impression from this side of the globe possibly created because the nutters that think that way shout the loudest so get the most publicity. It is all about self determination.

And it's not just the 'man in the street' that feels that way. We had some friends visit last year. He was the CEO of a large international company and I thought he would be a remainer but he surprised me by turning out to be a staunch brexiteer. He said that over the years he had got sick and tired of the endless, seemingly pointless, regulations coming out of Brussels. His company manufactured fire engines so nothing too onerous.

The majority of Brits have never felt part of the 'European Project' and I firmly believe it's in the best interest of both parties that they both go their own way.

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#2620496 12-Dec-2020 14:34

SJB:

The majority of Brits have never felt part of the 'European Project' and I firmly believe it's in the best interest of both parties that they both go their own way.

I have heard the arguments you cite and some people do feel that way. I have also heard people say they didn't realise the full consequences of Brexit and now regret it. Some seem to want 'sovereignty' but don't want to pay the price of being treated like every other country outside the EU. Some say they didn't know they would lose the substantial subsidies paid by the EU, which I think amount to quite a bit more than the UK pays to Europe, and now they don't know what to do. Some seem to think the UK should retain special trade status but not have to follow EU rules. There are many arguments on both sides. The truth of the matter will emerge over time, and I think when the British bump up against the full cost of their choice, they will come to regret it.

Apart from that, surveys indicate that the majority of Europeans support the EU and always have. Populist nationalist parties are less keen, but most of the population is still in favour. I used to write for business publications and what company executives longed for more than anything was a common currency and open borders. Most people who remember customs and passport checks at every European border are extremely grateful for the union you say was 'imposed' on them. They didn't need a referendum; they were already desperate for it.

You can't compare anything in Europe to New Zealand. The 'majority of Brits' you refer to are insular, inward-looking people pining for the glory days of empire. Those days are gone and those people will come to bitterly regret their decision to cast themselves adrift.

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#2620621 12-Dec-2020 18:30

Rikkitic:

The 'majority of Brits' you refer to are insular, inward-looking people pining for the glory days of empire. Those days are gone and those people will come to bitterly regret their decision to cast themselves adrift.

I'm sorry but that's laughable.

Brits alive today weren't even born when the so called empire had come and gone so why would they be pining for it. I consider myself reasonably representative of the so called middle class and I couldn't give a flying **** about the empire. That was something that was important to my grandparents, not even to my parents.

I would also characterize it as determining their own future rather than being cast adrift. Anyway, I doubt if either of us will be around when the end result becomes apparent.

And according to this BBC article from 2017 Britain was the second largest net contributor to the EU after Germany. I imagine that's been the case for many years.

EU budget: Who pays most in and who gets most back? - BBC News

neb

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#2620681 12-Dec-2020 20:24

SJB:
I'm sorry but that's laughable. Brits alive today weren't even born when the so called empire had come and gone so why would they be pining for it.

Irredentism isn't about pining for something that's just passed, it's pining for something that happened long enough ago that no-one can remember all the bad bits - child labour, slavery, systematic abuse of women and the poor, etc - but only have some vague memory from history books about how great things were back then. One of the biggest annual outpourings of patriotism in the UK is in the Victoria and Albert Hall, not the Clement Attlee Hall. Greece and FYROM fought for decades over who gets to use the name of the homeland of Alexander the Great, not Mehmed V. Hitler went on about the 12th-century empire of Frederick Barbarossa, not Kurt Ebert. etc.

So yeah, this is fostered by a bunch of people who want things back to how they were in the good old days that never were.

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SJB

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#2620777 13-Dec-2020 08:36

neb: One of the biggest annual outpourings of patriotism in the UK is in the Victoria and Albert Hall.

Not sure I've ever heard of that place. I think you are getting confused with the V and A Museum.

If you had ever been to the Proms you'd realize it's all about the music, of which there are many different types performed over the month that the Proms take place, from traditionally classical thru to avant garde and even contributions from, god forbid, 'the colonies'.

Seriously though your comment demonstrates exactly the misguided view of what happens in Britain that I was talking about.

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#2620806 13-Dec-2020 09:23

SJB:

neb: One of the biggest annual outpourings of patriotism in the UK is in the Victoria and Albert Hall.

Not sure I've ever heard of that place. I think you are getting confused with the V and A Museum.

If you had ever been to the Proms you'd realize it's all about the music, of which there are many different types performed over the month that the Proms take place, from traditionally classical thru to avant garde and even contributions from, god forbid, 'the colonies'.

Seriously though your comment demonstrates exactly the misguided view of what happens in Britain that I was talking about.

Rule Britannia! Land of Hope and Glory. Hip hip hoorah slavery, colonialism and imperial warfare! I have been to the Proms and that is when everyone gets up and cheers the nostalgic past. Good music otherwise though.

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#2620837 13-Dec-2020 10:40

Rikkitic:

Good music otherwise though.

100% agree with that. Better with the wide range of music today as well.

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#2621160 14-Dec-2020 07:50

SJB:

Rikkitic:

Those days are gone and those people will come to bitterly regret their decision to cast themselves adrift.

I'm sorry but that's laughable.

I'm going to have agree with you there, but only inasmuch as most of them will expire before they admit their regrets.

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#2621195 14-Dec-2020 09:40

SaltyNZ:

SJB:

I'm sorry but that's laughable.

I'm going to have agree with you there, but only inasmuch as most of them will expire before they admit their regrets.

Sorry my post was misleading. I was referring to this part.

"The 'majority of Brits' you refer to are insular, inward-looking people pining for the glory days of empire."

I don't think you can really comment on whether they will regret it or not because none of us will be around to see the long term effects.

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#2621415 14-Dec-2020 16:40

Rikkitic:. ...Some say they didn't know they would lose the substantial subsidies paid by the EU, which I think amount to quite a bit more than the UK pays to Europe, and now they don't know what to do.

Sorry but I think that statement comes under the category of "fake news" unless you can come up with some figures to back it up. Remember that the stream of lies, sorry one lie, that is often quoted about Brexiteers is the figure on the side of the bus that overstated UK's net contribution to the EU. However, what was never at doubt was that the UK is a net contributor to the EU - just how many billions was the point of debate.

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#2621458 14-Dec-2020 16:43

One aspect of this debate that I can never understand is that a whole bunch of kiwis thought that TPPA was a complete travesty and loss of sovereignty for NZ, and a whole bunch of kiwis (which I think overlap significantly) seem to think that Brexit is a complete travesty for the UK. But Brexit seeks to undo the equivalent of TPPA on steroids for the UK.

Rikkitic

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#2621465 14-Dec-2020 17:30

shk292:

Sorry but I think that statement comes under the category of "fake news" unless you can come up with some figures to back it up. Remember that the stream of lies, sorry one lie, that is often quoted about Brexiteers is the figure on the side of the bus that overstated UK's net contribution to the EU. However, what was never at doubt was that the UK is a net contributor to the EU - just how many billions was the point of debate.

This has been batted back and forth throughout the Brexit debate. It depends on the figures you choose, how you choose to interpret them, and whether you choose to ignore the 'invisible' contributions that flow back to the UK. Maybe they give more than they get. Maybe they don't. Maybe it doesn't matter anymore. In any case, I didn't state it as a fact. I said 'I think' because I wasn't sure. Therefore it cannot be fake.

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#2621497 14-Dec-2020 19:44

Rikkitic:

This has been batted back and forth throughout the Brexit debate. It depends on the figures you choose, how you choose to interpret them, and whether you choose to ignore the 'invisible' contributions that flow back to the UK. Maybe they give more than they get. Maybe they don't. Maybe it doesn't matter anymore. In any case, I didn't state it as a fact. I said 'I think' because I wasn't sure. Therefore it cannot be fake.

I don't think it's ever been argued that UK is a net beneficiary. Here are the numbers, so now you know:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48256318

UK net contribution a bit over 7B Euros. Not as much per capita as the Netherlands but still significant

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