Don Brash with Kim Hill. RNZ needs a new feature in their app

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Forums › Politics › Don Brash with Kim Hill. RNZ needs a new feature in their app - an optional Te Reo filter

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#1913413 5-Dec-2017 16:18

Rikkitic:

I can assure you that the French take great offense when hapless foreigners garble pronunciation of their words. From some comments I have seen, Maori are not just being precious flowers here. What they object to is people not even making a feeble effort to attempt approximate pronunciation. They rightly perceive that as an insult, as in I hold this language in such contempt that it is not worth making any effort over. Maybe English speakers aren't bothered by this because English is constantly mutilated by people all over the world. It is in no way an endangered language, merely a tortured one.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

Someone who pronounces Taupo incorrectly isn't trying to insult anyone. They are simply pronouncing it how they have (incorrectly) learned it and therefore feel comfortable pronouncing it.

With any language there is an uncomfortable period while you are learning the pronunciation. You have to work through that valley of death and it's easy to be self-concious. Lose the mind game at that point and it's over. Scolding about pronunciation can easily deter people from trying/learning/caring.

I know my high school (French) French teacher's attitude cost her lots and lots of students. She made French the least popular language at our school. As soon as they could people dropped her class, just to get away from her imperious attitude.

Mike

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#1913418 5-Dec-2017 16:22

I recall being in Noumea once, and I had been taking French Lessons 3 months, spent a bit of money on it. I tried speaking French and watching people visibly cringe when I tried was very offputting.

One shopkeeper actually said "Please, *please* stop, I can't stand listening to you butcher my beautiful language, speak English". Someone came out afterward and said my accent was actually very good and they were impressed I had made an effort and to ignore that one person.

Having said that, on a recent Trip to Paris, I again did make an effort, and it seemed more appreciated than rebuffed.

Rikkitic

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#1913421 5-Dec-2017 16:32

MikeAqua:

Someone who pronounces Taupo incorrectly isn't trying to insult anyone. They are simply pronouncing it how they have (incorrectly) learned it and therefore feel comfortable pronouncing it.

With any language there is an uncomfortable period while you are learning the pronunciation. You have to work through that valley of death and it's easy to be self-concious. Lose the mind game at that point and it's over. Scolding about pronunciation can easily deter people from trying/learning/caring.

I know my high school (French) French teacher's attitude cost her lots and lots of students. She made French the least popular language at our school. As soon as they could people dropped her class, just to get away from her imperious attitude.

Good point!

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#1913424 5-Dec-2017 16:34

networkn:

I recall being in Noumea once, and I had been taking French Lessons 3 months, spent a bit of money on it. I tried speaking French and watching people visibly cringe when I tried was very offputting.

One shopkeeper actually said "Please, *please* stop, I can't stand listening to you butcher my beautiful language, speak English". Someone came out afterward and said my accent was actually very good and they were impressed I had made an effort and to ignore that one person.

Having said that, on a recent Trip to Paris, I again did make an effort, and it seemed more appreciated than rebuffed.

I feel your pain. I have been there. Modern, younger French people are much, much better in this regard.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#1913436 5-Dec-2017 16:59

Rikkitic:

networkn:

I recall being in Noumea once, and I had been taking French Lessons 3 months, spent a bit of money on it. I tried speaking French and watching people visibly cringe when I tried was very offputting.

One shopkeeper actually said "Please, *please* stop, I can't stand listening to you butcher my beautiful language, speak English". Someone came out afterward and said my accent was actually very good and they were impressed I had made an effort and to ignore that one person.

Having said that, on a recent Trip to Paris, I again did make an effort, and it seemed more appreciated than rebuffed.

I feel your pain. I have been there. Modern, younger French people are much, much better in this regard.

I feel that talking to people that Travelled in France 10-15 years ago, vs now, the culture in Paris esp has improve re Tourists. Before, they resented us, now they embrace us (somewhat).

I went to a couple of 3 Michellin Star restaurants in Paris, I felt like a fish out of water because of the language, though they were excellent in helping me navigate the menu's etc.

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#1913452 5-Dec-2017 17:20

networkn:

I feel that talking to people that Travelled in France 10-15 years ago, vs now, the culture in Paris esp has improve re Tourists. Before, they resented us, now they embrace us (somewhat).

I went to a couple of 3 Michellin Star restaurants in Paris, I felt like a fish out of water because of the language, though they were excellent in helping me navigate the menu's etc.

My experience about 25 years ago was they particularly didn't like the English (that was probably mutual ). However once/if they knew you were from New Zealand their attitude to you and your poor French language skills evaporated. They admired the All Blacks and were very apologetic about the Rainbow Warrior attack.

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#1913493 5-Dec-2017 19:58

networkn:

I recall being in Noumea once, and I had been taking French Lessons 3 months, spent a bit of money on it. I tried speaking French and watching people visibly cringe when I tried was very offputting.

One shopkeeper actually said "Please, *please* stop, I can't stand listening to you butcher my beautiful language, speak English". Someone came out afterward and said my accent was actually very good and they were impressed I had made an effort and to ignore that one person.

Having said that, on a recent Trip to Paris, I again did make an effort, and it seemed more appreciated than rebuffed.

I get that. I took a Chinese Intermediate class, for quite a while. Tutor said I was good. I passed. Talked to wife's parents, (who are Chinese) non comprende!

But thats ok. I tried, and I know a bit. When I hear foreignors talk English, thats fine too, same issue. I did German for 4 years, so I understand its not hard but its also not easy. Effort counts

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#1913494 5-Dec-2017 20:01

Technofreak:

networkn:

I feel that talking to people that Travelled in France 10-15 years ago, vs now, the culture in Paris esp has improve re Tourists. Before, they resented us, now they embrace us (somewhat).

I went to a couple of 3 Michellin Star restaurants in Paris, I felt like a fish out of water because of the language, though they were excellent in helping me navigate the menu's etc.

My experience about 25 years ago was they particularly didn't like the English (that was probably mutual ). However once/if they knew you were from New Zealand their attitude to you and your poor French language skills evaporated. They admired the All Blacks and were very apologetic about the Rainbow Warrior attack.

And the semi final, forget what year, against France??? :-)

End of the day, people, are people, people like good people, where that be a nation or an individual.

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#1913534 5-Dec-2017 20:26

networkn:

I can imagine Maori's cringing painfully every night at 5pm as John Campbell tries to be trendy and speak some Maori. I am not Maori and it makes me wince when I hear it.

networkn:

I recall being in Noumea once, and I had been taking French Lessons 3 months, spent a bit of money on it. I tried speaking French and watching people visibly cringe when I tried was very offputting.

Serves you right for trying to be trendy ... ?

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#1913535 5-Dec-2017 20:26

MikeB4:

I don't know why they give this racist has been or more accurately never was the time of day. Just ignore him and and leave him to his own little bigoted world.

What exactly did Brash say that was racist? Did he threaten to kill all the maoris, or that he hates maori?

My understanding is that he wants less Te Reo spoken on a government funded radio station.

It is a valid opinion, just as someone who wants more Te Reo spoken on the same radio station.

To use the word racist in this sense is to marginalise real racism (national front type stuff).

Would you like the government to fine/imprison people from expressing that they want less maori spoken on radio NZ?

Personally, I don't care if they change RNZ to a maori only station. But I do care that people are trying to use hate to suppress another persons opinion.

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#1913570 5-Dec-2017 21:39

dafman:

networkn:

I can imagine Maori's cringing painfully every night at 5pm as John Campbell tries to be trendy and speak some Maori. I am not Maori and it makes me wince when I hear it.

networkn:

I recall being in Noumea once, and I had been taking French Lessons 3 months, spent a bit of money on it. I tried speaking French and watching people visibly cringe when I tried was very offputting.

Serves you right for trying to be trendy ... ?

You seem to be trying to pick a fight with me in multiple threads, save your trolling for someone else.

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#1913653 6-Dec-2017 07:03

networkn:

dafman:

networkn:

I can imagine Maori's cringing painfully every night at 5pm as John Campbell tries to be trendy and speak some Maori. I am not Maori and it makes me wince when I hear it.

networkn:

I recall being in Noumea once, and I had been taking French Lessons 3 months, spent a bit of money on it. I tried speaking French and watching people visibly cringe when I tried was very offputting.

Serves you right for trying to be trendy ... ?

You seem to be trying to pick a fight with me in multiple threads, save your trolling for someone else.

Just picking up on contradictions in a debate - John Campbell is 'trying to be trendy' when using a second language, when you use one you are not. However, point taken, I could have commented on this without the sarcasm.

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#1913716 6-Dec-2017 09:25

dafman:

Just picking up on contradictions in a debate - John Campbell is 'trying to be trendy' when using a second language, when you use one you are not. However, point taken, I could have commented on this without the sarcasm.

The two situations are completely different. I am sure you can see that.

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#1913729 6-Dec-2017 09:52

surfisup1000:

MikeB4:

I don't know why they give this racist has been or more accurately never was the time of day. Just ignore him and and leave him to his own little bigoted world.

What exactly did Brash say that was racist? Did he threaten to kill all the maoris, or that he hates maori?

Specifically: he objected to non-translated te reo for audiences who were almost entirely non-fluent in te reo. He referred to Guyon on RNZ but also to meeting attended by a non-Maori audience that commenced with a non-translated mihi. He also said he supports tax-payers funding of te reo platforms. I guess he could be accused of separatism -which is a form of racism.

He is an intelligent, intellectual man and I imagine speech from which he can't glean information irritates him. He also said he has no interest in learning te reo, but wishes he spoke mandarin - a statement which people may interpret as racist if they specifically want to.

I still think he is trying to limit the free speech of others, for something that is at worst an irritant or inconvenience to him and therefore he is wrong.

But he has the right to express his view too. He should have the common sense to know he is picking a fight he can't win. As a wealthy-white-male, he is the spawn of Satan in the eyes of a liberal audience before he opens his mouth.

Ultimately I think free speech prevails.

My grandmother taught me a little of 'the Gaelic' (she was fluent). If I wanted to prattle on in Gaelic in front of an audience who don't understand it I can (for about 30 seconds!). Free speech gives me that right. I don't because the audience wouldn't understand it and consequently I think it would be pointless and impolite.

Mike

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#1913812 6-Dec-2017 11:48

networkn:

I recall being in Noumea once, and I had been taking French Lessons 3 months, spent a bit of money on it. I tried speaking French and watching people visibly cringe when I tried was very offputting.

One shopkeeper actually said "Please, *please* stop, I can't stand listening to you butcher my beautiful language, speak English". Someone came out afterward and said my accent was actually very good and they were impressed I had made an effort and to ignore that one person.

Having said that, on a recent Trip to Paris, I again did make an effort, and it seemed more appreciated than rebuffed.

Master the response to the question "parlez-vous Francais?"

"Oui, un petit peu, comme les enfants et s'il vous parlez lentement."

The grammar might not be correct (it's been a long while since I had to write in French!) but I have always found that French people laugh at the response (which for any non speakers reading means, roughly "Do you speak French?" "Yes, a little bit, like children and if you speak slowly!") and immediately take it into account in the subsequent conversation.

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