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tdgeek
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  #2540458 13-Aug-2020 19:41
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elpenguino:

 

On reflection I am very cross* with Collins and Brownlee for stooping so low to dog whistle such utter conspiracy BS on this issue. Their statements have the capacity to dangerously undermine the buy-in required for society to work together to get through something like this.

 

In a country that always scores near the top in international transparency and trust in government surveys, there's just no need for it. I have confidence that if there was important un-released information, a whistle blower would have let it slip.

 

Such a tactic shows the current National leadership are shut scared of getting thumped at the election and they don't have anything up their sleeve. They are totally bereft of ideas, talent and policy. Collins is still playing the game the only way she knows how, the Dirty Politics way. She doesn't act like there's been a subtle re-framing of the game and how the public expect it to be played.

 

 

 

*preferred words not used so as to abide by FUG

 

 

Its election year, but they promised two National Parks, so NZ is sorted




Fred99
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  #2540462 13-Aug-2020 19:47
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tdgeek:

 

Its election year, but they promised two National Parks, so NZ is sorted

 

 

They also promised to spend the entire $14 billion reserved for Covid recovery on some roads.

 

"Sorry - your grandma has to die  - but look on the bright side - you won't be stuck in a traffic jam on the way to the funeral".


antonknee
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  #2540505 13-Aug-2020 19:59
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The thing with consipracy theories is that what they allege is actually very hard to pull off. You've seen the machinations of government play out - and that they're not always 100% effective at executing things (lets take the quarantine mishaps as an example).

 

I've worked in public sector roles (briefly) and in a number of similarly large private sector organisations, it's just not realistic to coordinate the effort required for a conspiracy and keep it under wraps.

 

By saying the government knew about cases before they made it public (or consipracies in general), you are saying that all the people in their different organisations who would need to be involved have done their bit and kept the whole thing secret squirrel. It's just not feasible IMO. 

 

Note this is not to say that information cannot be managed, or that there wasn't cause for concern (like what's happening in VIC).




tdgeek
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  #2540511 13-Aug-2020 20:06
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Fred99:

 

tdgeek:

 

Its election year, but they promised two National Parks, so NZ is sorted

 

 

They also promised to spend the entire $14 billion reserved for Covid recovery on some roads.

 

"Sorry - your grandma has to die  - but look on the bright side - you won't be stuck in a traffic jam on the way to the funeral".

 

 

Lol

 

The Govt has done nothing. But they passed 192 laws , 3 X the previous 9 years. But Nats did build a tunnel a poster said. Maybe three roads to the parks maybe.


tdgeek
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  #2540513 13-Aug-2020 20:09
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antonknee:

 

The thing with consipracy theories is that what they allege is actually very hard to pull off. You've seen the machinations of government play out - and that they're not always 100% effective at executing things (lets take the quarantine mishaps as an example).

 

I've worked in public sector roles (briefly) and in a number of similarly large private sector organisations, it's just not realistic to coordinate the effort required for a conspiracy and keep it under wraps.

 

By saying the government knew about cases before they made it public (or consipracies in general), you are saying that all the people in their different organisations who would need to be involved have done their bit and kept the whole thing secret squirrel. It's just not feasible IMO. 

 

Note this is not to say that information cannot be managed, or that there wasn't cause for concern (like what's happening in VIC).

 

 

Its all sour grapes, but wth most NZ Poiitical topics its not about adult discussion


Hemi88
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  #2540527 13-Aug-2020 20:29
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I find it hard to believe that they would be withholding these cases labour just had there launch on Saturday you really think they would done that if they knew something was happening

 
 
 

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MikeAqua
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  #2540653 14-Aug-2020 08:33
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Helen Clark is now saying NZ was unprepared and dodged a bullet.  She is calling for a Royal Commission or similar review.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300075184/coronavirus-helen-clark-wants-full-inquiry-into-nzs-covid19-response 

 

She is even suggesting the private sector could help with quarantine.  That's right - Helen Clark who did many things to make business harder while PM, is suggesting business could do something useful.





Mike


Fred99
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  #2540685 14-Aug-2020 08:58
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MikeAqua:

 

Helen Clark is now saying NZ was unprepared and dodged a bullet.  She is calling for a Royal Commission or similar review.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300075184/coronavirus-helen-clark-wants-full-inquiry-into-nzs-covid19-response 

 

She is even suggesting the private sector could help with quarantine.  That's right - Helen Clark who did many things to make business harder while PM, is suggesting business could do something useful.

 

 

I thought the private sector were already helping with quarantine, or did the government acquire the 7000 or so hotel rooms needed by stealth?

 

 


MikeAqua
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  #2540686 14-Aug-2020 08:59
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Handle9:

 

Can you please be more explicit in what you mean? What are causes for concern?

 

 

For example: -

 

 

- At least three cases of Kiwis coming off flights overseas and testing positive for COVID. 

 

 

- The Korea case was positive the day after his arrival in Singapore https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12351244 it's plausible but not provable that he was infected in NZ. 

 

 

- Kiwis landing in Australia tested positive for COVID on July 6 and July 20. https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/two-women-test-positive-covid-19-in-australia-after-arriving-auckland

 

 

- Poor implementation of security at MIQ facilities

 

 

- Multiple breaches of MIQ protocols, including by at least three COVID positive people.

 

 

- People refusing COVID testing when Health Professionals recommended it https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/422169/doctors-frustrated-by-patients-refusing-covid-19-tests 

 

 

None of these things on their own indicate a problem, there is no 'smoking gun' but they would each cause a rational person to raise their risk outlook.  Also add in what was happening in Aussie.  We were, in mutual trans-Tasman smugness, contemplating a bubble with Aussie not that long ago.  They  had things under control using model similar to ours.

 

 

I am not alleging the govt has done anything wrong or hidden any fact.  However, I think there is reason to suggest they have would been increasingly concerned for several weeks and at that same time (sensibly) not wanting to panic the public.





Mike


tdgeek
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  #2540696 14-Aug-2020 09:09
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MikeAqua:

 

  We were, in mutual trans-Tasman smugness, contemplating a bubble with Aussie not that long ago.  They  had things under control using model similar to ours.

 

 

 

 

The Govt wasnt, Kiwis were, Kiwi businesses wer,e the Govt was luke warm on day one


MikeAqua
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  #2540746 14-Aug-2020 09:53
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Fred99:

 

MikeAqua:

 

Helen Clark is now saying NZ was unprepared and dodged a bullet.  She is calling for a Royal Commission or similar review.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300075184/coronavirus-helen-clark-wants-full-inquiry-into-nzs-covid19-response 

 

She is even suggesting the private sector could help with quarantine.  That's right - Helen Clark who did many things to make business harder while PM, is suggesting business could do something useful.

 

 

I thought the private sector were already helping with quarantine, or did the government acquire the 7000 or so hotel rooms needed by stealth?

 

 

Her comments suggest she is referring to MIQ operational management.  I mention it because that's very contrary to Labour party values.





Mike


 
 
 

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Fred99
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  #2540758 14-Aug-2020 10:04
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MikeAqua:

 

Her comments suggest she is referring to MIQ operational management.  I mention it because that's very contrary to Labour party values.

 

 

Was she involved in the decision to allow Serco to mis-manage a NZ prison?  Oh no - that was Key. Maybe her memory is failing her.


MikeAqua
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  #2540973 14-Aug-2020 13:04
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Fred99:

 

MikeAqua:

 

Her comments suggest she is referring to MIQ operational management.  I mention it because that's very contrary to Labour party values.

 

 

Was she involved in the decision to allow Serco to mis-manage a NZ prison?  Oh no - that was Key. Maybe her memory is failing her.

 

 

Exactly my point ... Labour were opposed a business running a prison (something I agree with them on), but Clark seems to be all for a business running a compulsory quarantine facility. 

 

An MIQ hotel is obviously very, very different from a prison but you still aren't allowed to leave so there are some similarities: People depend entirely on whoever is running the facility for their welfare.  





Mike


Handle9
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  #2541099 14-Aug-2020 15:02
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MikeAqua:

Handle9:


Can you please be more explicit in what you mean? What are causes for concern?



For example: -



- At least three cases of Kiwis coming off flights overseas and testing positive for COVID. 



- The Korea case was positive the day after his arrival in Singapore https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12351244 it's plausible but not provable that he was infected in NZ. 



- Kiwis landing in Australia tested positive for COVID on July 6 and July 20. https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/two-women-test-positive-covid-19-in-australia-after-arriving-auckland



- Poor implementation of security at MIQ facilities



- Multiple breaches of MIQ protocols, including by at least three COVID positive people.



- People refusing COVID testing when Health Professionals recommended it https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/422169/doctors-frustrated-by-patients-refusing-covid-19-tests 



None of these things on their own indicate a problem, there is no 'smoking gun' but they would each cause a rational person to raise their risk outlook.  Also add in what was happening in Aussie.  We were, in mutual trans-Tasman smugness, contemplating a bubble with Aussie not that long ago.  They  had things under control using model similar to ours.



I am not alleging the govt has done anything wrong or hidden any fact.  However, I think there is reason to suggest they have would been increasingly concerned for several weeks and at that same time (sensibly) not wanting to panic the public.



Thanks. That's entirely logical and reasonable. Another community outbreak was inevitable, it was never possible to keep all cases out long term.

It's also not where Brownlee was going with his BS. He was going down the "they knew and never told anyone" road.

Fred99
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  #2541109 14-Aug-2020 15:31
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MikeAqua:

 

Exactly my point ... Labour were opposed a business running a prison (something I agree with them on), but Clark seems to be all for a business running a compulsory quarantine facility. 

 

An MIQ hotel is obviously very, very different from a prison but you still aren't allowed to leave so there are some similarities: People depend entirely on whoever is running the facility for their welfare.  

 

 

She should have had the common sense as a long retired PM/politician to keep her opinions to herself - especially as it comes across as critical of operational decisions made by the party she once led, and that she's had a relatively high profile internationally.  

 

Anyway both she and John Key made comments in favour of greatly increasing the number of people crossing the border to come to NZ.  I guess they were both paid to speak, so felt obliged to tell the audience what they paid to hear.   I expect those opinions would go down like a cup of cold sick if repeated today.


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