NZ 2023 Election Thread

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#3147842 15-Oct-2023 21:24

tdgeek:

shk292:

Do we have any true Greens? James Shaw possibly I suppose. The rest seem to be more red than green, classic watermelons.

If they were pure green and willing to work with left or right to achieve environmental gains, they might actually do some good. Just as National will be pulled right by ACT, I feel they could be pulled "green" by a non-left green party

Greens are awesome. But they need to focus on Green matters and not far left social issues, same as Act is far right on social issues. Problem is National isnt interested in green issues, that costs money. Lets make hay today and worry later about tomorrow.

So all the work Todd Muller did with James Shaw on the Zero Carbon Act was a charade?

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#3147843 15-Oct-2023 21:28

shk292:

Technofreak:

Likewise the true Greens (not the Left Wing Radical Greens) could acheive a lot by working with National. There are Teal coalitions elsewhere.

Do we have any true Greens? James Shaw possibly I suppose. The rest seem to be more red than green, classic watermelons.

If they were pure green and willing to work with left or right to achieve environmental gains, they might actually do some good. Just as National will be pulled right by ACT, I feel they could be pulled "green" by a non-left green party

Exactly my point.

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#3147845 15-Oct-2023 21:45

BarTender: I think the specials will make quite a change. I think National will lose 2 seats all up, so Winston will be king maker once more as NACT won’t reach out to Greens or TPM.

But the loss of ~15% of the voters turning out give or take this election is absolutely what turned it.

It's just as much that both the Greens and TPM, especially TPM have categorically stated they won't work with National.

There's probably not much point in even trying to work with someone who is openly hostile to you. The TPM predecessors were pragmatic enough to accept John Key's offer to join the government and achieved some good things. Unfortunately the current TPM MP's do not appear to be anywhere near as pragmatic.

Ironically at a time when a Maori party like TPM has done so well in the polls, due to the stance of some of their MP's towards National, they will be in a position to actually achieve nothing for the people that voted for them.

So far as the Greens go I think James Shaw would work with National but the Left Wing Radical section of the Green Party has too much power. The Co-Leader fiasco that James Shaw faced was a direct result of the actions of Left Wing faction of the party.

To my mind whether or not David Seymour and the Act Party would work with either of the Greens or TPM would be a moot point if the Greens and TPM were prepared to work with National as the Greens out number Act.

The Greens, that is not the Left Wing Radicals that have latched onto the Greens, would acheive a lot more of their goals if they would work with both the Left and the Right.

I'd suggest a fair proportion of that 15% you mention were people who could not bring themselves to vote for Labour this time and rather than vote for another party stayed home and didn't vote.

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#3147859 15-Oct-2023 22:14

Technofreak: The TPM predecessors were pragmatic enough to accept John Key's offer to join the government and achieved some good things. Unfortunately the current TPM MP's do not appear to be anywhere near as pragmatic.

Main reason is that coalition was wildly unpopular with TPM voters and to some extent eventually fractured the party. A secondary reason is the ACT party relying on and obviously playing to a significant number of alt-right type supporters. This is new territory for ACT. Seymour has been unpleasantly keen to grab a hold of it to carry him to power.

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#3147909 15-Oct-2023 23:34

Wombat1:

I think the international votes will shift to the right this time round. Lets not forget what happened to those of us who were locked out during COVID.

As I've previously mentioned, the largest NZ electorate is probably Queensland, and this government has actually done a hell of a lot for New Zealanders living in Australia - more than any other government since Shipley even. I'm not so sure your thinking can be guaranteed at all. It was interesting, when I rocked up to ECQ (the Electoral Commission of Queensland) to vote, there were two other people casting their votes and collecting their orange golem "I voted" sticker. Three people showing up to vote at the same time when it's not even a legal obligation to enrol in the first place? Hmm.

vexxxboy:

not if it is one of our biggest trading partners and you are meant to be working in the interest of your country, if you cant do that then dont accept the job.

I vehemently disagree. Economic interests are not the only interests. As a democratic country, kowtowing to China's "what we say goes, who cares what the rule of law says" attitude is very much not in the interests of the country.

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#3147910 15-Oct-2023 23:36

ezbee:

China is going to enjoy this...
New Zealand Opposition Leader Christopher Luxon says he would 'explore' joining AUKUS if his party wins upcoming election
https://www.skynews.com.au/world-news/new-zealand-opposition-leader-christopher-luxon-says-he-would-explore-joining-aukus-if-his-party-wins-upcoming-election/news-story/1012fac7703ed6a0e88157a5e9100a3c

Unlikely. Both the US and Australia are opposed to NZ joining, especially as it doesn't bring much to the table in a military context, and both countries submarines cannot enter NZ waters (which is why NZ has been left out of so many joint military exercises with the US).

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#3147938 16-Oct-2023 07:53

Technofreak:

So all the work Todd Muller did with James Shaw on the Zero Carbon Act was a charade?

No - and Shaw has repeatedly called him out as a genuinely honest person who wanted to work constructively for the good of everyone. But you'll note that he couldn't handle the main part of his job - Opposition - and flamed out. Even Simon Bridges said later in a Politics in Pubs podcast with The Spinoff, that LOTO is a literal soul-destroying job. If you want to get elected, you need to be in the news. You don't get in the news by issuing press releases that say 'Yes actually that policy from the government is pretty sensible and we will happily go along with it.' You get in the news by relentlessly attacking everything the government does, good, bad or indifferent. Simon Bridges, Leader of the Opposition, I wouldn't touch in a million years. Simon Bridges, ex-Leader of the Opposition speaking on the podcast ... he actually came across as someone I'd vote for.

But anyway, in summary - the National Party has an agenda set by its billionaire donors and members. And that agenda does not include any action on woke climate change that might slightly impede short-term profits.

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#3147940 16-Oct-2023 07:56

Technofreak:

So far as the Greens go I think James Shaw would work with National but the Left Wing Radical section of the Green Party has too much power. The Co-Leader fiasco that James Shaw faced was a direct result of the actions of Left Wing faction of the party.

Well, you know how to fix that, don't you?

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#3147942 16-Oct-2023 08:00

Technofreak: The Co-Leader fiasco that James Shaw faced was a direct result of the actions of Left Wing faction of the party.

Can you point to anything substantiating this view?

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#3147943 16-Oct-2023 08:01

BarTender: I am fairly confident that the voter turnout will be about 12% overall lower and 30% lower in the 18-24 in comparison to 2020.

Hmm not official yet but looking to be around 5% not 12%...

"The Electoral Commission is reporting that voter turnout for this year's General Election is estimated to be 78.4% of those enrolled as at 5pm Saturday 14 October.

This compares with a final 82.2% turnout of those enrolled in 2020."

https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/10/15/election-live-nats-win-labour-shattered-nz-first-waits-in-the-wings/

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#3147945 16-Oct-2023 08:11

gzt:
Technofreak: The Co-Leader fiasco that James Shaw faced was a direct result of the actions of Left Wing faction of the party.

Can you point to anything substantiating this view?

I wasn't a delegate at that particular AGM, but that is correct.

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#3147946 16-Oct-2023 08:17

vexxxboy:

quickymart:

I have a feeling things are going to change somewhat once that's all counted - and I also have a feeling that, depressingly, Winston is going to need to be involved again 😕

Special votes are ones from outside of the electorate eh? Early votes aren't counted as special ones, right? I voted last Sunday but hope mine was counted last night.

just make Winston foreign minister , he was ok last time he did it, and keep him overseas most of the year .

Tova O'Brien also suggests something similar here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300989575/the-peters-paradox-to-embrace-or-exile-that-is-the-question

Also, a Spinoff post-mortem: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/16-10-2023/winners-losers-big-losers-and-gigantic-losers-from-the-2023-general-election

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#3147957 16-Oct-2023 08:52

SaltyNZ:

But anyway, in summary - the National Party has an agenda set by its billionaire donors and members. And that agenda does not include any action on woke climate change that might slightly impede short-term profits.

All political parties have a policy agenda set by their members.

As an side, the lack of billionaire donors didn't seem to stop Grant Robertson from stripping funding from climate initiatives when he suddenly needed to look like a pennywise Finance Minister.

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#3147958 16-Oct-2023 08:55

Incidentally I was at my local polling station when the technical issues first emerged so I'll be keen to hear what the Electoral Commission have to say about that when they do their usual review of the how the day went. There was very little signage until I actually got into the primary school where voting was taking place, well away from the road so I plan on feeding that back to them.

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#3147960 16-Oct-2023 08:57

GV27:

As an side, the lack of billionaire donors didn't seem to stop Grant Robertson from stripping funding from climate initiatives when he suddenly needed to look like a pennywise Finance Minister.

How about explaining how wonderful everything will be under National instead of rehashing a campaign that is over with?

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