GCSB declines Spark’s proposal to use Huawei 5G equipment

Forums › Spark New Zealand (including Skinny and BigPipe) › GCSB declines Spark’s proposal to use Huawei 5G equipment

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#2136426 29-Nov-2018 09:48

Lias: Now maybe it is a beat up job, and I'm generally a bit loathe to trust the US, but to me it's a bit like climate change. I don't personally understand the science behind climate change, so I have to trust those that do. With intelligence/national security matters, we're never going to see the evidence and have to take things even more on faith. When the Bush, Obama, and Trump administrations all agree on something, I tend to give it some credence as generally they wouldn't even agree the sky is blue.

I agree with your rationale here, but if that's true then why doesn't this retroactively apply to ALL Huawei gear deployed?

Why is it all of a sudden a National Security concern when Huawei have been rolling out Spark's 4G, 2D's whole network, UFB for Enable and UFF, Vodafone & Spark and others with CPE in peoples home. Yes different departments build Mobile vs Fixed GPON vs CPE but the same concern should apply wouldn't it?

Unless there is some specific bad actors who were only involved in the 5G equipment build and how it was architected. But again that makes no sense as Huawei along with everyone else needs to comply with the 3GPP 5G standards and they can't go building a proprietary system as no one would buy it.

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#2136433 29-Nov-2018 09:54

BarTender:

Why is it all of a sudden a National Security concern when Huawei have been rolling out Spark's 4G, 2D's whole network, UFB for Enable and UFF, Vodafone & Spark and others with CPE in peoples home. Yes different departments build Mobile vs Fixed GPON vs CPE but the same concern should apply wouldn't it?

Because until TICSA in 2013 there was not really any real way for the GCSB to have a say over pre approving network gear....

They got given extra power and they are now using them...

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#2136442 29-Nov-2018 10:07

wellygary:

BarTender:

Why is it all of a sudden a National Security concern when Huawei have been rolling out Spark's 4G, 2D's whole network, UFB for Enable and UFF, Vodafone & Spark and others with CPE in peoples home. Yes different departments build Mobile vs Fixed GPON vs CPE but the same concern should apply wouldn't it?

Because until TICSA in 2013 there was not really any real way for the GCSB to have a say over pre approving network gear....

They got given extra power and they are now using them...

Pretty sure GCSB had oversight before the actual act was approved..LI has been around for a long time.

I would suspect that the equipment @BarTender is referring to went through approvals to be used.

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#2136500 29-Nov-2018 10:54

Love how, like me, my fellow geeks have primarily jumped in on the technology impacts of this decision.

It's nothing to do with the technology - as already noted all vendors have their own issues with government influence - whether that includes outright spying and back doors and phone home daemons etc is somewhat irrelevant.

Why? Because this is a purely political decision - as a western democracy, US ally and (smallest) member of the 5-eyes 'information sharing' network, New Zealand's politicians had no choice in this decision.

Where is New Zealand's national security best served? as part of existing western alliances, or sidelined and outcast as a peon of China?

Of course the other 5-eyes all pushed for this - New Zealand can't be the weak link here (even though we're already seen as such).

GCSB's math here is simple - toe the line or throw away our entire security network and be outcast.

So am I happy with this decision - not really, but at some point you have to pick a side and the GCSB just did.

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#2136510 29-Nov-2018 11:12

BarTender:

Lias: Now maybe it is a beat up job, and I'm generally a bit loathe to trust the US, but to me it's a bit like climate change. I don't personally understand the science behind climate change, so I have to trust those that do. With intelligence/national security matters, we're never going to see the evidence and have to take things even more on faith. When the Bush, Obama, and Trump administrations all agree on something, I tend to give it some credence as generally they wouldn't even agree the sky is blue.

I agree with your rationale here, but if that's true then why doesn't this retroactively apply to ALL Huawei gear deployed?

Why is it all of a sudden a National Security concern when Huawei have been rolling out Spark's 4G, 2D's whole network, UFB for Enable and UFF, Vodafone & Spark and others with CPE in peoples home. Yes different departments build Mobile vs Fixed GPON vs CPE but the same concern should apply wouldn't it?

Unless there is some specific bad actors who were only involved in the 5G equipment build and how it was architected. But again that makes no sense as Huawei along with everyone else needs to comply with the 3GPP 5G standards and they can't go building a proprietary system as no one would buy it.

Two things -

1 - TICSA wasn't in play then

2 (and the most important) - 5G architecture moves away from a traditional core. Huawei kit is only at the edge of the current networks, whereas with the proposed network if would essentially be a Huawei core.

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#2136524 29-Nov-2018 11:32

sbiddle:

2 (and the most important) - 5G architecture moves away from a traditional core. Huawei kit is only at the edge of the current networks, whereas with the proposed network if would essentially be a Huawei core.

Last i checked, the deployment was not going to have any huawei kit at the core at all.

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#2136542 29-Nov-2018 11:36

sbiddle:

BarTender:

I agree with your rationale here, but if that's true then why doesn't this retroactively apply to ALL Huawei gear deployed?

Why is it all of a sudden a National Security concern when Huawei have been rolling out Spark's 4G, 2D's whole network, UFB for Enable and UFF, Vodafone & Spark and others with CPE in peoples home. Yes different departments build Mobile vs Fixed GPON vs CPE but the same concern should apply wouldn't it?

Unless there is some specific bad actors who were only involved in the 5G equipment build and how it was architected. But again that makes no sense as Huawei along with everyone else needs to comply with the 3GPP 5G standards and they can't go building a proprietary system as no one would buy it.

Two things -

1 - TICSA wasn't in play then

2 (and the most important) - 5G architecture moves away from a traditional core. Huawei kit is only at the edge of the current networks, whereas with the proposed network if would essentially be a Huawei core.

This:

=================================================

Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Act 2013
Public Act 2013 No 91
Date of assent 11 November 2013
Commencement see section 2

2 Commencement

(1) Part 1, subpart 4 of Part 2, and subparts 1, 2, 7, and 8 of Part 4 come into force on the date that is 3 months after the date on which this Act receives the Royal assent.

(2) The rest of this Act comes into force on the date that is 6 months after the date on which this Act receives the Royal assent.

=============================================

Before TISCA, the GCSB had no part in Telco / ISP network architecture, design or engineering.
They might have been able to unofficially hint, suggest or ask nicely that a provider do things differently, but they were legally the overseas technical Intelligence arm of the state, they had no legal right to be dabbling in this stuff at all.

TISCA changed the rules, now they're the referee not an observer, and this is the first time they've blown the whistle and called "offside" [well, publicly, anyway]

Edit: formatting scraped horribly from Legislation.govt.nz

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#2136590 29-Nov-2018 13:17

BarTender:

Well wasn't that a terrible interview with Andrew Little.

What's the point on giving an interview if you're going to give the same canned answer to every question?

It'd have been nice to see Little grilled over all of the existing Huawei kit all over the country.

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#2136591 29-Nov-2018 13:17

I dont see what the issue actually is, apart form one agency raising some concerns that need to be resolved.

Back in the day when I used to work in telecomunications I understood that equipment selection used to be all about supply chain management and the ability to work with vendors in different areas (including security) and the confidence one had in the vendors ability to make desired changes in a timely manner.

I dont think there is any need for any organisation to install special software/hardware on equipment for a signal that is largely over the air anyway.

My feeling is the issue may have something to do with the points of contact to the network around its edge and the level of compliance that is required to make that secure - or something like that.

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#2136593 29-Nov-2018 13:28

My thoughts, with 5G moving some core components out to the edge is the key change in why the GCSB is interested. With key location registers within a vendor (such as Huawei) reach they now have pretty easy access to locate every citizen with a device (mob phone or IOT) and their movements. I understand the likes of Google already have this, but.........................

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#2136611 29-Nov-2018 13:56

Does this make Nokia a monopoly supplier for 5G network equipment?

Because that's just what New Zealand needs. Another monopoly/near monopoly supplier.

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#2136622 29-Nov-2018 14:11

evilengineer:

Does this make Nokia a monopoly supplier for 5G network equipment?

Because that's just what New Zealand needs. Another monopoly/near monopoly supplier.

Ericsson could come into play?

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#2136624 29-Nov-2018 14:21

The UK is in the same situation. BT is a big user of Huawei gear and they have a dedicated GCHQ supervised unit examining the hardware and firmware. This units has never found any explicite spyware (that they have revealed) but do have reservation about processes involving 3rd pary parts. However the UK government have yet to ban this gear so not quite a consistent ‘5 eyes’ situation.

With this current level of supervision / investigation I take the view the concerns are theoretical and too risky to attempt to impliment by Huawei. Exposure would wreck their business and I suspect even PLA interests in the firm are mostly financial.

Now, does the Chinese government pass Huawei,s source code to their hacking teams to find the inevitable bugs and see if they are exploitable, probably. However that’s a risk of any gear and with the widespead targeted hacking going on no guarantees source code for US or EU gear has not been stolen as well.

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#2136637 29-Nov-2018 15:08

Something interesting from the BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46370014

If the other members of five eyes are so concerned then maybe they should front up with the cash to replace all the Huawei equipment in New Zealand if they believe that it poses such a threat to security or would it be a situation that when the other members are expected to front up with cash that they would suddenly go, "well, I guess we overreacted...carry on as before".

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#2136654 29-Nov-2018 15:46

From Huawei:

Huawei seeks clarification from New Zealand Government

Huawei New Zealand Deputy Managing Director, Andrew Bowater: “Huawei is aware of Spark's statement about 5G deployment, and we are looking into the situation.

Huawei New Zealand has not had any formal notification or contact from the GCSB, but as the Director General has noted publicly, this is an ongoing process. Huawei would welcome the opportunity to actively address any concerns and work together to find a way forward.

At this stage the GCSB and Ministers have not engaged with Huawei in this process. In the interests of natural justice and fairness, Huawei is seeking an urgent meeting with the relevant Ministers and officials to understand the Government’s position and get clarification of the process from here.

“There has been no evidence of wrongdoing by Huawei presented and we strongly reject the notion that our business threatens New Zealand in any way. We deserve the opportunity to have our voice heard and to address any concerns in good faith.

Since Huawei was established in New Zealand in 2005 it has always worked in good faith with the Government and other industry players. We believe that our involvement in the telecommunications sector has benefited New Zealand’s economy, businesses and consumers

The biggest potential impact will be on New Zealand consumers both in terms of technology and price due to the lack of competition. Huawei has a proven record of delivering the best technology in New Zealand at a competitive price. In March this year we achieved a then world-record of 18.23Gbps for the indoor 5G trial with Spark while our competitors were only able to achieve just over 1Gbps the same week.”

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