Warning: Rage Ahead - Campbell Live and childhood poverty

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#1120963 3-Sep-2014 08:18

JimmyH:
BarTender:

If only the right-wing posters here would approach tax dodging / avoidance companies (how much tax did Google, Amazon, Microsoft... pay??) as those are the groups who by far and above fleece the country far more so than any dodgy parent on the dole. Wasn't the conservative figure something like 4 billion??

I don't know about Microsoft or Google, but I thought Amazon as a whole was barely profitable - so it stands to reason that their tax bill was small.

I would be surprised if Microsoft and Google were dodging $4 billion of taxes in NZ, it just doesn't sound plausible. However, if they are not paying much tax then that still doesn't mean they are fleecing anyone if they are complying with the letter of the tax law and paying what they owe. If the tax law has avenues that let them inappropriately reduce tax then blame the politicians that enact the buggy law, not the companies who are merely complying with it.

The do it like this.
Set up a "Shell Company" in a tax free haven.
That shell company then bills a "Licensing fee" from the NZ company that account for 90% of its earning. This fee and its other tax deductions see it paying tax on about 5% of its profits, which gives it an effective tax rate of 1.4%

A New Zealand company who can't do that pays 28% tax.

Some easy solutions are
a) Make foreign fees deductible up to 15% but they then loose GST claw backs
b) Deductions only equals the amount of tax paid in foreign country (if its it Ireland @10% then we get to claim 18%, if its Barbados @ 0% we claim 28%)
c) Make them a non tax paying entity then we claim 50% tax on any money leaving the country, however that means they can not claim any costs back
d) Make them pay 10% of gross turn over

The company gets to choose and that is it they are locked into that structure forever.

Dingbatt

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#1120970 3-Sep-2014 08:34

Geektastic:
Dingbatt:
networkn:
Dingbatt:
Geektastic: Corporates pay what they are required to pay. The assumption that we are somehow entitled to expect more of what they earn in the name of 'fairness' just seems wooly headed.

If the Chinese can restrict the number of offspring breeders produce, why can't we?

I concede 'fair' wasn't the correct term to use. And corporates are only one group that use loopholes to reduce their tax burden. It is we poor suckers that pay PAYE that have nowhere to hide. The problem is both the law and the enforcement of it that lets the 4 Billion referenced by BarTender go missing.

As for the chinese, we don't operate that sort of political or societal system. It's just as easy for people with children to look down their nose at childless people as the reverse. Without other people's children who is going to change your adult diaper and wipe the drool off your chin in the old folks home?

Poor suckers paying PAYE? Say what notw You mean contributing members of society?

Yup. Me included. Nowhere to hide, I just wish others had nowhere to hide as well.

I don't pay PAYE and neither does my wife.

If you think we have somewhere to hide, I will send you our Provisional Tax bill from the IRD - based on the assumption that we will increase our turnover by 5% and with 8.4% penalty interest if we underpay - and a mere 1.75% credit interest if we overpay...it's payable in a lump sum every few months. At the end of your first year in business, the IRD will demand terminal tax (the full amount of income tax for the year just ended, in a single lump) PLUS you will begin paying Provisional tax for the year just begun.

Note that you pay the IRD what they tell you you must pay - and if they get it wrong and you make too much money, and hence pay too little Provisional Tax, they will stiff you for 8.4% interest on the underpayment to reward your hard work and effort....

PAYE people have it easy, I can tell you. Running your own business most assuredly does NOT mean you are not a contributing member of society - in fact it means you do a lot of unpaid work for the IRD in addition to paying through the nose.

Is that what you read into my post? If you did then I apologize for not being clear enough. I mean the top 1% that hide behind trusts, the corporates that make a paper loss in NZ while exporting profits overseas, the huge black (cash) economy. I certainly did not mean most small businesses that have to wade through so much red tape, compliance costs, etc. In fact considering they take all the financial risk and are still expected to comply with all the BS, I'm surprised anybody bothers. I have always thought the way provisional tax is calculated and applied is wrong. Perhaps it could be included in the long overdue revamp of the NZ tax system. But there are also some business expense perks that come from owning your own business that aren't available to PAYE payers.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

sir1963

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#1120972 3-Sep-2014 08:42

Geektastic:
Dingbatt:
networkn:
Dingbatt:
Geektastic: Corporates pay what they are required to pay. The assumption that we are somehow entitled to expect more of what they earn in the name of 'fairness' just seems wooly headed.

If the Chinese can restrict the number of offspring breeders produce, why can't we?

I concede 'fair' wasn't the correct term to use. And corporates are only one group that use loopholes to reduce their tax burden. It is we poor suckers that pay PAYE that have nowhere to hide. The problem is both the law and the enforcement of it that lets the 4 Billion referenced by BarTender go missing.

As for the chinese, we don't operate that sort of political or societal system. It's just as easy for people with children to look down their nose at childless people as the reverse. Without other people's children who is going to change your adult diaper and wipe the drool off your chin in the old folks home?

Poor suckers paying PAYE? Say what notw You mean contributing members of society?

Yup. Me included. Nowhere to hide, I just wish others had nowhere to hide as well.

I don't pay PAYE and neither does my wife.

If you think we have somewhere to hide, I will send you our Provisional Tax bill from the IRD - based on the assumption that we will increase our turnover by 5% and with 8.4% penalty interest if we underpay - and a mere 1.75% credit interest if we overpay...it's payable in a lump sum every few months. At the end of your first year in business, the IRD will demand terminal tax (the full amount of income tax for the year just ended, in a single lump) PLUS you will begin paying Provisional tax for the year just begun.

Note that you pay the IRD what they tell you you must pay - and if they get it wrong and you make too much money, and hence pay too little Provisional Tax, they will stiff you for 8.4% interest on the underpayment to reward your hard work and effort....

PAYE people have it easy, I can tell you. Running your own business most assuredly does NOT mean you are not a contributing member of society - in fact it means you do a lot of unpaid work for the IRD in addition to paying through the nose.

You missed the part where you claim for a "Home office" where by the house you live in a percentage of the Rates, Mortgage, Power , Maintenance , phone , car , insurances, rubbish bin, lawn mowing, etc etc are deductible (Its worth about $1000 back in my pocket each year). Never mind all the scams some people do like buying a new fridge for the business and then swap it for the old one at home, getting 4 new tyres for the work vehicle at end up on the wifes car. Then there are the work Uniforms (nice new Amani suit...thanks), work related wineing and dining. Hell until I was forced out of using an LAQC, 100% of my cars running costs (petrol, WOF, Insurance etc etc) was deductible even though it was for personal use and then I could claim depreciation on the car too !.

Now as a PAYE earner too, I am paying 39% on my income over 70K, and wage earners get no deductions for anything, nothing for the house, nothing for the car, nothing for work clothes or tools, etc. Where as a business gets all the deductions then then pays a maximum of 28% no matter how much they earn.

However if you are Google etc who use tax loopholes, they pay about 1.4% tax.

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#1120979 3-Sep-2014 09:05

benokobi:
nathan: Raise taxes off all these rich pricks and redistribute it too these poor families who cant say no to having more offspring even though they are already not well off

So the people who made better decisions in life have to pay for others who havent ?

Kids who are hungry (not their fault) do not learn at school
Kids who are hungry are also then ones most disruptive
Kids who are hungry are the ones who are more likely to end up in detention
Kids who are hungry are more likely to get stood down or expelled.
Kids who are hungry are more likely to become ill
These kids then end up on a benefit, prison or low wage job, a cycle of poverty.

These kids had no choice about being born, being born into a poor family , being born into a home of neglect.

Without choices there can be no decisions.

Feeding these kids so they can learn and do better than their parents is a real threat to the 1%, educated people who have choices want more than minimum wage jobs, part time jobs, dirty jobs.

Blaming their parents
Does nothing to fix the problem
Does not feed the kids
Does not educate the kids
Does not stop the cycle of poverty

But hey, it makes you feel good knowing someone else is to blame and therefore you have to do nothing about it.

Dingbatt

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#1120981 3-Sep-2014 09:08

Oh, and I'm out of this thread, so don't bother quoting me expecting a response.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

Geektastic

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#1121005 3-Sep-2014 10:04

The most obvious thing to do is lower our tax rates so that no one - corporate or individual - feels they are being extorted. If people think the amounts they are paying are reasonable they are far less likely to spend money on expensive accountancy to try and avoid paying.

Given that companies pay employees who pay tax, pay vehicle taxes for road use, GST for all manner of things and so on it is hard to see what they are actually taxed for at all other than 'just because we can'.

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#1121006 3-Sep-2014 10:06

sir1963:
benokobi:
nathan: Raise taxes off all these rich pricks and redistribute it too these poor families who cant say no to having more offspring even though they are already not well off

So the people who made better decisions in life have to pay for others who havent ?

Kids who are hungry (not their fault) do not learn at school
Kids who are hungry are also then ones most disruptive
Kids who are hungry are the ones who are more likely to end up in detention
Kids who are hungry are more likely to get stood down or expelled.
Kids who are hungry are more likely to become ill
These kids then end up on a benefit, prison or low wage job, a cycle of poverty.

These kids had no choice about being born, being born into a poor family , being born into a home of neglect.

Without choices there can be no decisions.

Feeding these kids so they can learn and do better than their parents is a real threat to the 1%, educated people who have choices want more than minimum wage jobs, part time jobs, dirty jobs.

Blaming their parents
Does nothing to fix the problem
Does not feed the kids
Does not educate the kids
Does not stop the cycle of poverty

But hey, it makes you feel good knowing someone else is to blame and therefore you have to do nothing about it.

Why don't we just feed the kids at school then? If schools have cafeterias and provide three meals a day (which gives us an opportunity to extend the school day to 1800 so they can get more learning done) for ALL children in ALL schools, won't that just solve the problem?

I had every meal in school from age 7 to 22!!

frankv

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#1121047 3-Sep-2014 11:34

Well I feel it should be asset tested, however those who are wealthy enough to not require it, likely educated themselves, worked hard and made good decisions. Strictly speaking they should be MORE entitled to it than anyone due to having contributed more heavily to the tax pool.

Oh really???

Maybe they were just luckier than others. Didn't have a child with muscular dystrophy. Didn't have a car accident that left them unable to work. Didn't have some debilitating physical or mental illness. Didn't have their savings ripped off by Hotchins or Brierley or Fay or Richwhite. And did have their education paid for by someone else.

We all pay a bit into the Superannuation and health and social welfare pools (a) so that others can live, as everyone is entitled to, hopefully with some dignity, and (b) as insurance policies... there but for the grace of God...

Geektastic

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#1121058 3-Sep-2014 11:47

frankv:

Well I feel it should be asset tested, however those who are wealthy enough to not require it, likely educated themselves, worked hard and made good decisions. Strictly speaking they should be MORE entitled to it than anyone due to having contributed more heavily to the tax pool.

Oh really???

Maybe they were just luckier than others. Didn't have a child with muscular dystrophy. Didn't have a car accident that left them unable to work. Didn't have some debilitating physical or mental illness. Didn't have their savings ripped off by Hotchins or Brierley or Fay or Richwhite. And did have their education paid for by someone else.

We all pay a bit into the Superannuation and health and social welfare pools (a) so that others can live, as everyone is entitled to, hopefully with some dignity, and (b) as insurance policies... there but for the grace of God...

Slightly OT but a former Brierly director lives next door to me in a $2.5 million house...!

sir1963

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#1121062 3-Sep-2014 11:52

Geektastic: The most obvious thing to do is lower our tax rates so that no one - corporate or individual - feels they are being extorted. If people think the amounts they are paying are reasonable they are far less likely to spend money on expensive accountancy to try and avoid paying.

Given that companies pay employees who pay tax, pay vehicle taxes for road use, GST for all manner of things and so on it is hard to see what they are actually taxed for at all other than 'just because we can'.

Ireland tried that.... and FAILED.

lets now look at the other assumptions

Employee tax. 2000hr a year @$14 the employee pays $3920 tax, the employer deducts the wage at 28% so gets back $7840.
Companies don't pay GST
Businesses use the police and other emergency services
Businesses use the courts
Businesses use the health system (accidents at work are heavily subsidised)
Businesses benefit from the education system
Businesses benefit from trade agreements

etc etc etc.

sir1963

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#1121064 3-Sep-2014 11:55

frankv:

Well I feel it should be asset tested, however those who are wealthy enough to not require it, likely educated themselves, worked hard and made good decisions. Strictly speaking they should be MORE entitled to it than anyone due to having contributed more heavily to the tax pool.

Oh really???

Maybe they were just luckier than others. Didn't have a child with muscular dystrophy. Didn't have a car accident that left them unable to work. Didn't have some debilitating physical or mental illness. Didn't have their savings ripped off by Hotchins or Brierley or Fay or Richwhite. And did have their education paid for by someone else.

We all pay a bit into the Superannuation and health and social welfare pools (a) so that others can live, as everyone is entitled to, hopefully with some dignity, and (b) as insurance policies... there but for the grace of God...

Apparently in the USA, 60% of bankruptcies are due to medical bills, and of them, 80% had medical insurance.

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charsleysa

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#1121066 3-Sep-2014 11:59

sir1963:
Geektastic: The most obvious thing to do is lower our tax rates so that no one - corporate or individual - feels they are being extorted. If people think the amounts they are paying are reasonable they are far less likely to spend money on expensive accountancy to try and avoid paying.

Given that companies pay employees who pay tax, pay vehicle taxes for road use, GST for all manner of things and so on it is hard to see what they are actually taxed for at all other than 'just because we can'.

Ireland tried that.... and FAILED.

lets now look at the other assumptions

Employee tax. 2000hr a year @$14 the employee pays $3920 tax, the employer deducts the wage at 28% so gets back $7840.
Companies don't pay GST
Businesses use the police and other emergency services
Businesses use the courts
Businesses use the health system (accidents at work are heavily subsidised)
Businesses benefit from the education system
Businesses benefit from trade agreements

etc etc etc.

Are you trying to say business use all these services without paying for it?

Businesses pay tax at 28%, and the tax they remove from an employee wage/salary goes directly to the IRD.

Regards
Stefan Andres Charsley

sir1963

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#1121067 3-Sep-2014 12:02

Geektastic:
sir1963:
benokobi:
nathan: Raise taxes off all these rich pricks and redistribute it too these poor families who cant say no to having more offspring even though they are already not well off

So the people who made better decisions in life have to pay for others who havent ?

Kids who are hungry (not their fault) do not learn at school
Kids who are hungry are also then ones most disruptive
Kids who are hungry are the ones who are more likely to end up in detention
Kids who are hungry are more likely to get stood down or expelled.
Kids who are hungry are more likely to become ill
These kids then end up on a benefit, prison or low wage job, a cycle of poverty.

These kids had no choice about being born, being born into a poor family , being born into a home of neglect.

Without choices there can be no decisions.

Feeding these kids so they can learn and do better than their parents is a real threat to the 1%, educated people who have choices want more than minimum wage jobs, part time jobs, dirty jobs.

Blaming their parents
Does nothing to fix the problem
Does not feed the kids
Does not educate the kids
Does not stop the cycle of poverty

But hey, it makes you feel good knowing someone else is to blame and therefore you have to do nothing about it.

Why don't we just feed the kids at school then? If schools have cafeterias and provide three meals a day (which gives us an opportunity to extend the school day to 1800 so they can get more learning done) for ALL children in ALL schools, won't that just solve the problem?

I had every meal in school from age 7 to 22!!

Why don't we pay the parents a living wage.
Businesses are not automatically entitled to make money, nor make the owner wealthy. So why should wages be pushed down to make a business viable, why should the workers be subsiding the employer ?

Some NZ business are already paying a living wage and have NOT gone broke as all the right wingers claim they will
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/9961603/Living-wage-pays-off-for-business

sir1963

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#1121070 3-Sep-2014 12:06

charsleysa:
sir1963:
Geektastic: The most obvious thing to do is lower our tax rates so that no one - corporate or individual - feels they are being extorted. If people think the amounts they are paying are reasonable they are far less likely to spend money on expensive accountancy to try and avoid paying.

Given that companies pay employees who pay tax, pay vehicle taxes for road use, GST for all manner of things and so on it is hard to see what they are actually taxed for at all other than 'just because we can'.

Ireland tried that.... and FAILED.

lets now look at the other assumptions

Employee tax. 2000hr a year @$14 the employee pays $3920 tax, the employer deducts the wage at 28% so gets back $7840.
Companies don't pay GST
Businesses use the police and other emergency services
Businesses use the courts
Businesses use the health system (accidents at work are heavily subsidised)
Businesses benefit from the education system
Businesses benefit from trade agreements

etc etc etc.

Are you trying to say business use all these services without paying for it?

Businesses pay tax at 28%, and the tax they remove from an employee wage/salary goes directly to the IRD.

Nope I am saying business MUST pay taxes, however I do point out that the employer gives $3920 to the IRD as PAYE and then gets back $7840 for minimum wage employees, so the tax payer is out of pocket $3920 per full time minimum wage employee.

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#1121071 3-Sep-2014 12:07

charsleysa:
sir1963:
Geektastic: The most obvious thing to do is lower our tax rates so that no one - corporate or individual - feels they are being extorted. If people think the amounts they are paying are reasonable they are far less likely to spend money on expensive accountancy to try and avoid paying.

Given that companies pay employees who pay tax, pay vehicle taxes for road use, GST for all manner of things and so on it is hard to see what they are actually taxed for at all other than 'just because we can'.

Ireland tried that.... and FAILED.

lets now look at the other assumptions

Employee tax. 2000hr a year @$14 the employee pays $3920 tax, the employer deducts the wage at 28% so gets back $7840.
Companies don't pay GST
Businesses use the police and other emergency services
Businesses use the courts
Businesses use the health system (accidents at work are heavily subsidised)
Businesses benefit from the education system
Businesses benefit from trade agreements

etc etc etc.

Are you trying to say business use all these services without paying for it?

Businesses pay tax at 28%, and the tax they remove from an employee wage/salary goes directly to the IRD.

Businesses have many employees who earn FAR more than $14/hour. I have not worked for that little since I did odd jobs for my father as a teenager and neither has anyone else I know!

Companies are unpaid tax collectors for GST.

Are you suggesting the courts would vanish if we wound up all the businesses?

Businesses do not use the health system at all. Their employees do.

So what?

So what? With no businesses, why would you even have a trade agreement?

Not all businesses are huge things with millions of dollars slushing through the accounts. Most are very small with very few employees - often none bar the owners - and their cash flows are severely impacted by things like GST, Provisional Tax and so on.

With no businesses you have nil employment - which is a much greater benefit to society than businesses get in return for a 28% tax bill!!

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