The Evil that is ISIS

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MikeB4
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#1241467 18-Feb-2015 11:30

This is IMHO WW3, however unlike 1914 or 1939 there has been no mass declaration or mass mobilisation so its somewhat crept up on us.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

DarthKermit

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#1241471 18-Feb-2015 11:40

If you can stomach watching their latest video (the one involving the 21 Egyptians), it's amazing to watch how cleverly they use their video production skills to get their propaganda message across.

These aren't stupid camel jockies. Evil ones without a doubt however.

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MikeB4

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#1241472 18-Feb-2015 11:49

DarthKermit: If you can stomach watching their latest video (the one involving the 21 Egyptians), it's amazing to watch how cleverly they use their video production skills to get their propaganda message across.

These aren't stupid camel jockies. Evil ones without a doubt however.

No thanks.

Also the term "camel jockies" is offensive.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

ajobbins

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#1241494 18-Feb-2015 12:06

This is a tough one because, as a fairly civilized society it's very, very hard to sit back and watch such horrendous and deplorable acts of violence and murder...but at the same time there are a number of implications for other nations getting involved.

Firstly, what gives a another nation (ie. us) the right to effectively invade another to join the fight? Without that country asking for foreign assistance, it is effectively an invasion, and while that may seem easy for us to justify, other nations don't always see it that way.

This gives rise to the second point I will make, that participation, particularly with groups like ISIS/L, makes our nation and citizens a target. Terrorists generally don't target countries and their citizens for no reason, it's almost always justified as some sort of retribution for the countries involvement against them.

When we take it upon ourselves to get into other people's civil wars, we unfortunately need to accept and expect that is likely to lead to retribution in the form of what we call terrorism. The more we get involved, the more we put ourselves at risk.

Wars aren't fought on the battlefield anymore, they are fought anywhere and anytime. And this is exactly why we should not just rush on in. We need to ensure that anything we do to help those suffering or being murdered in other nations is carefully considered.

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MikeB4

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#1241511 18-Feb-2015 12:09

ajobbins: This is a tough one because, as a fairly civilized society it's very, very hard to sit back and watch such horrendous and deplorable acts of violence and murder...but at the same time there are a number of implications for other nations getting involved.

Firstly, what gives a another nation (ie. us) the right to effectively invade another to join the fight? Without that country asking for foreign assistance, it is effectively an invasion, and while that may seem easy for us to justify, other nations don't always see it that way.

This gives rise to the second point I will make, that participation, particularly with groups like ISIS/L, makes our nation and citizens a target. Terrorists generally don't target countries and their citizens for no reason, it's almost always justified as some sort of retribution for the countries involvement against them.

When we take it upon ourselves to get into other people's civil wars, we unfortunately need to accept and expect that is likely to lead to retribution in the form of what we call terrorism. The more we get involved, the more we put ourselves at risk.

Wars aren't fought on the battlefield anymore, they are fought anywhere and anytime. And this is exactly why we should not just rush on in. We need to ensure that anything we do to help those suffering or being murdered in other nations is carefully considered.

This fight is across multiple borders. Also Iraq has formally asked for help

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

SaltyNZ

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#1241539 18-Feb-2015 12:40

networkn:

So we do nothing ?

We can provide humanitarian relief, although I suspect a lot of that would be diverted. But I believe that pretty much anything we could do would be basically pointless other than to make ourselves feel less guilty about it, sadly.

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Geektastic

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#1241567 18-Feb-2015 12:56

networkn: It seems daily that ISIS is beheading, burning alive, or otherwise torturing and people, at least some of whom seem fairly innocent to me, though it may just be the way the press has it presented.

These are particularly hideous ways to kill people in my opinion, unnecessarily cruel and painful.

I believe a global effort is required to put them down, I don't have an issue with NZ sending troops either in a Military or support role (I prefer support).

I don't think it's reasonable for any country to take a hands off approach.

It seems to be a particularly evil group. I am unsure their true motives?

As I understand it, their motives are to pursue the Koran verses urging them to convert the world and kill those who won't convert.

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#1241575 18-Feb-2015 12:59

ajobbins: This is a tough one because, as a fairly civilized society it's very, very hard to sit back and watch such horrendous and deplorable acts of violence and murder...but at the same time there are a number of implications for other nations getting involved.

Firstly, what gives a another nation (ie. us) the right to effectively invade another to join the fight? Without that country asking for foreign assistance, it is effectively an invasion, and while that may seem easy for us to justify, other nations don't always see it that way.

This gives rise to the second point I will make, that participation, particularly with groups like ISIS/L, makes our nation and citizens a target. Terrorists generally don't target countries and their citizens for no reason, it's almost always justified as some sort of retribution for the countries involvement against them.

When we take it upon ourselves to get into other people's civil wars, we unfortunately need to accept and expect that is likely to lead to retribution in the form of what we call terrorism. The more we get involved, the more we put ourselves at risk.

Wars aren't fought on the battlefield anymore, they are fought anywhere and anytime. And this is exactly why we should not just rush on in. We need to ensure that anything we do to help those suffering or being murdered in other nations is carefully considered.

I view it more holistically. The world is a body and things like IS are gangrene. Doctors cut gangrenous limbs off to save the whole.

The UN should be running the world on the basis that there are Rules. If you break the rules and won't cease after reasonable requests, you should be 'cut off' for the good of the remainder.

networkn

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#1241588 18-Feb-2015 13:10

ajobbins: This is a tough one because, as a fairly civilized society it's very, very hard to sit back and watch such horrendous and deplorable acts of violence and murder...but at the same time there are a number of implications for other nations getting involved.

Firstly, what gives a another nation (ie. us) the right to effectively invade another to join the fight? Without that country asking for foreign assistance, it is effectively an invasion, and while that may seem easy for us to justify, other nations don't always see it that way.

This gives rise to the second point I will make, that participation, particularly with groups like ISIS/L, makes our nation and citizens a target. Terrorists generally don't target countries and their citizens for no reason, it's almost always justified as some sort of retribution for the countries involvement against them.

When we take it upon ourselves to get into other people's civil wars, we unfortunately need to accept and expect that is likely to lead to retribution in the form of what we call terrorism. The more we get involved, the more we put ourselves at risk.

Wars aren't fought on the battlefield anymore, they are fought anywhere and anytime. And this is exactly why we should not just rush on in. We need to ensure that anything we do to help those suffering or being murdered in other nations is carefully considered.

Agree with your first point, but I beleive that to almost every nation (excluding it's nut bags and extremists) would consider the burning alive or beheading an unncesssarily evil way to dispatch of people. These acts are not the law of the country, but the behaviour of a large and organized group of extremists.

I personally disagree that a woman should be killed in some countries for adultery, but it's LAW in that country. We have no right to assert our opinion in this situation, however I don't believe ISIS is the same thing, they have no legal or judicial right to their actions.

I disagree entirely with your premise that we shouldn't participate for fear of becoming a target. This is cowardice of the highest order as a country.Why is it ok for us to let our allys become a target and us reap the benefit without participation? I am fairly anti violence but I believe diplomacy would have
no effect here and allowing it to discontinue seems unacceptable to me.

SaltyNZ

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#1241599 18-Feb-2015 13:20

networkn: however I don't believe ISIS is the same thing, they have no legal or judicial right to their actions.

I think it's a little naive to believe that power doesn't flow from the barrel of a gun, especially in the middle east. They are making themselves the legal authorities simply by dint of the fact that they are unchallenged by any other.

I disagree entirely with your premise that we shouldn't participate for fear of becoming a target. This is cowardice of the highest order as a country.Why is it ok for us to let our allys become a target and us reap the benefit without participation? I am fairly anti violence but I believe diplomacy would have
no effect here and allowing it to discontinue seems unacceptable to me.

Fair point. But there is a difference between risking your life to make a difference and pointlessly throwing it away. Geektastic used the analogy of gangrene. It's appropriate; cutting off a little piece of gangrene is useless. You've to to get it all. And the patient has to agree to let you.

If the patient won't let you cut it all off, then all you can do is watch the patient die.

We don't have the right to go in and cut out the gangrene, and even if we did, for all our existential soul-searching, we lack the will.

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Zeon

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#1241604 18-Feb-2015 13:29

My pick is that hardly any of the true ISIS (and remember there are a lot who are branded with that name but are local tribespeoples etc.) know jack sh!t about the Koran or want to spread the message. Perhaps they say it but its a way to power and prestige for them. Case in point is that ginger kid from Aussie - whats the bet he was bullied and had no friends and saw this saw an opportunity to be someone?

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ajobbins

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#1241605 18-Feb-2015 13:33

networkn: I disagree entirely with your premise that we shouldn't participate for fear of becoming a target. This is cowardice of the highest order as a country.Why is it ok for us to let our allys become a target and us reap the benefit without participation? I am fairly anti violence but I believe diplomacy would have
no effect here and allowing it to discontinue seems unacceptable to me.

I'm not necessarily saying we shouldn't do something. I'm just making the point that when we do do something, there is a consequence of us becoming more likely to be targeted.

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#1241607 18-Feb-2015 13:34

networkn: It seems daily that ISIS is beheading, burning alive, or otherwise torturing and people, at least some of whom seem fairly innocent to me, though it may just be the way the press has it presented.

These are particularly hideous ways to kill people in my opinion, unnecessarily cruel and painful.

I believe a global effort is required to put them down, I don't have an issue with NZ sending troops either in a Military or support role (I prefer support).

I don't think it's reasonable for any country to take a hands off approach.

It seems to be a particularly evil group. I am unsure their true motives?

this is more complex than an average NZer will understand. i will try to summarise, but you may need wikipedia and google to fill in the gaps

1) this happens all the time, before there was ISIS, someone else / some other groups are doing it. sometimes even governments.

2) beheading: in 2014 alone, Saudi Arabia beheaded 87 people under their law

3) ISIS - long before there were any Maori in NZ, there was a prophet in modern Saudi, who upon dying, resulted in a fight between 4 of his generals. the modern Sunnis lay claim to be the rightful clan of pure muslims.

who are the Sunnis - Saudi, Jordan, previuosly Yemem (now overthrown, just last week), previously Saddam Hussain, previously the other dictators all overthrown by the white people

the modern Shi-tes - or olden Persia. hate the Sunnis, and the love is reciprocated. modern Iran. and also all the Arabs are anti Israel.

Since the Sunni dictators were killed by the West, there had been a power vacuum. many have come and gone. the newest is ISIS. who has a mission statement to restore Islam to its glory days in the birthplace of Islam. that is, Mecca in Saudi. these guys are Sunni. doing what Sunni does. but they seem to be uniting all the prevoiusly oppressed citizens (under Rulers in kingdoms), so there is endless supply of money and people willing to die for their cause.

we won't die for an allblack, but they will die for their cause. at the drop of a pin. supported by their mothers. and fathers. and uncles. etc

so how to solve it?
the Arabs have to Unite.
the West? every time they intervene they create a bigger monster.
will the Arabs unite? *shrugs my shoulders*
WW3

networkn

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#1241608 18-Feb-2015 13:34

ajobbins:
networkn: I disagree entirely with your premise that we shouldn't participate for fear of becoming a target. This is cowardice of the highest order as a country.Why is it ok for us to let our allys become a target and us reap the benefit without participation? I am fairly anti violence but I believe diplomacy would have
no effect here and allowing it to discontinue seems unacceptable to me.

I'm not necessarily saying we shouldn't do something. I'm just making the point that when we do do something, there is a consequence of us becoming more likely to be targeted.

Everything has consequences.

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#1241609 18-Feb-2015 13:34

hmm the line breaks are gone

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