Interesting video about Brexit

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Awrrr
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#1580993 27-Jun-2016 12:32

dejadeadnz:

Rikkitic: people like you can just assert on and on you like that democracy simply equates to majoritarianism. If you are going to play this game, then don't be outraged about horrendous things that the ignorant majority have perpetrated throughout history and continue to perpetrate.

Friendly tip: Your ideas, which are not necessarily bad, would be better received if you were a little less abrasive about communicating them.

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dejadeadnz

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#1580994 27-Jun-2016 12:33

For the majoritarianism = democracy crowd, do try opening your minds and read something a bit more learned.

http://www.bu.edu/law/journals-archive/bulr/documents/macedo.pdf

Pages 1037 to 1039 should suffice for those who are a bit lazy.

The idea that majoritarianism is the moral core of democracy does not hold up to critical scrutiny. Majoritarianism is not a uniquely authoritative or legitimate decision rule in conditions of disagreement among political equals. It has the virtue of simplicity, and it is decisive when there are two options. However, majoritarianism as an ideology is a simplistic and morally unattractive solution to the problem of collective self-rule amidst the great diversity and disagreement of modern mass societies. It is not a promising way of taking seriously the principle of fair treatment that we should also want our politics to represent. As Dworkin says, it should not be fetishized, as it too often is.

The above sums it up for me. For the lazy, the authors actually are NOT supporters of Nazism or whatever other nasty tags that one might be tempted to throw their way. So please don't go there.

nakedmolerat

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#1580995 27-Jun-2016 12:35

tdgeek:

No, I didn't miss it, as I have not been following it, not till a few days ago. While the younger generation voted 66% to remain, clearly the other 1/3 must have missed it.

If the Remain vote was the best vote for the UK, and that the vote was close, means many missed it, or it wasn't sold well, or somewhere in the middle

No it does not mean they have missed it. Whenever a decision is made, we take into account facts, emotions, experience etc. Some just choose to close their eye on facts because of what they believe. Eg: anti-vaccine movement - facts are there - but they ignore it for whatever reason.

Satch

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#1580996 27-Jun-2016 12:39

networkn:

What I don't get is that other than the immigration issue they really benefit no way unless I am mistaken. They would have been better to identify that as a key thing and approached brussels about some way to limit immigration through the EU. Or is that not possible? I would imagine they would have been able to use exiting the EU as a big stick in negotiations.

I believe that the EU is stronger than the UK and the EU intends to make Britan sorry for it's lack of forethought and vision.

This.

THIS!

Satch

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#1581018 27-Jun-2016 12:50

SJB:

There's no point in discussing ways brexit might be blocked no matter how bad an idea anybody thinks it is. It's done and dusted.

It might be better to not ask people to keep their views and thoughts to themselves and just provide your own views and thoughts as to why you don't think this will be possible?

Satch

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#1581021 27-Jun-2016 12:57

SJB:

MikeAqua:

There has been quite a wave of remorse by Leave voters on social media and also individual people interviewed by journalists etc.

As I posted before there's no proof that any of them actually voted leave. I would single out those interviewed by journalists as being particularly suspect.

As you have said twice now, but what would be the point of people coming forward and displaying their lack of intelligence in this way? Although if they voted leave in the first place...

Rikkitic

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#1581022 27-Jun-2016 12:57

dejadeadnz:

For the majoritarianism = democracy crowd, do try opening your minds and read something a bit more learned.

http://www.bu.edu/law/journals-archive/bulr/documents/macedo.pdf

Pages 1037 to 1039 should suffice for those who are a bit lazy.

The idea that majoritarianism is the moral core of democracy does not hold up to critical scrutiny. Majoritarianism is not a uniquely authoritative or legitimate decision rule in conditions of disagreement among political equals. It has the virtue of simplicity, and it is decisive when there are two options. However, majoritarianism as an ideology is a simplistic and morally unattractive solution to the problem of collective self-rule amidst the great diversity and disagreement of modern mass societies. It is not a promising way of taking seriously the principle of fair treatment that we should also want our politics to represent. As Dworkin says, it should not be fetishized, as it too often is.

The above sums it up for me. For the lazy, the authors actually are NOT supporters of Nazism or whatever other nasty tags that one might be tempted to throw their way. So please don't go there.

Shades of Ayn Rand! (May I go there?) Either you believe in democracy, warts and all, or you don't. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? As soon as you have any system where some votes are less valuable than others, or not regarded at all, you have the problem of deciding who decides these sorts of things. Ipso facto, you no longer have a democracy. What you seem to be advocating here is a return to the landed gentry system of voting, that good old class society the Tories you claim to despise so yearn for. The way to better democracy is better education and opportunity for all from an early age, not vote-culling.

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PhantomNVD

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#1581025 27-Jun-2016 13:00

dejadeadnz:

For the majoritarianism = democracy crowd, do try opening your minds and read something a bit more learned.

http://www.bu.edu/law/journals-archive/bulr/documents/macedo.pdf

Pages 1037 to 1039 should suffice for those who are a bit lazy.

The idea that majoritarianism is the moral core of democracy does not hold up to critical scrutiny. Majoritarianism is not a uniquely authoritative or legitimate decision rule in conditions of disagreement among political equals. It has the virtue of simplicity, and it is decisive when there are two options. However, majoritarianism as an ideology is a simplistic and morally unattractive solution to the problem of collective self-rule amidst the great diversity and disagreement of modern mass societies. It is not a promising way of taking seriously the principle of fair treatment that we should also want our politics to represent. As Dworkin says, it should not be fetishized, as it too often is.

reread the bold and explain how it supports your theory please?

DaveB

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#1581028 27-Jun-2016 13:02

dejadeadnz:

For the majoritarianism = democracy crowd, do try opening your minds and read something a bit more learned.

http://www.bu.edu/law/journals-archive/bulr/documents/macedo.pdf

Pages 1037 to 1039 should suffice for those who are a bit lazy.

OK, it had been my intention to just ignore you. But I will say this - I really do think you need to tone it down a little and stop abusing everybody. One, two, three, four or even five times I can accept. I am actually very tolerant and can be known for the odd outburst myself.

But to bang on and on, in the manner that you do, is, quite frankly boring and irritating. You really do need to understand (to me at least) that you appear to be continually insulting people for reasons that escape me.

The mods can ban me if they want, I've said my piece and have NO regrets in doing so.

Rikkitic

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#1581052 27-Jun-2016 13:07

@freitasm: Maybe time to lock this thread.

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dejadeadnz

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#1581054 27-Jun-2016 13:09

PhantomNVD: do extend people the courtesy of reading the WHOLE quote and what it represents before you essentially accuse me of being unable to read. The authors acknowledge that majoritarian is simple and leads to a decision when binaries are presented. But they then go on to criticise the fetishising of it, as I also have.

Rikkitic: for the love of whatever, please read the whole of the article before commenting. And do not put words into my mouth and tell me what I believe in, as per Mauricio's early request. Moreover, if you are going to just keep asserting, without further argument, that majoritarianism represents the be all and all of democracy, when I have given you an easy to read article summarising views supporting yours and also arguments by the author suggesting that institutional protection of minorities are required, then what's the point in us continuing?

Fred99

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#1581055 27-Jun-2016 13:11

Thought I'd just throw in the fact that the GBP continues to fall against the USD.

Trading 2% below Friday's close, currently at 1.3386.

Fred99

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#1581057 27-Jun-2016 13:13

Rikkitic:

@freitasm: Maybe time to lock this thread.

I'd hope not. Let's be polite instead. This is a developing story - it's not over yet.

Rikkitic

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#1581058 27-Jun-2016 13:15

As long as it continues to be about the story.

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dejadeadnz

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#1581059 27-Jun-2016 13:17

Fred99:
Rikkitic:

@freitasm: Maybe time to lock this thread.

I'd hope not. Let's be polite instead. This is a developing story - it's not over yet.

I feel likewise. The debates are, well, pretty robust and also exposes some of the underlying demographic fractures inherent in this and other wider social debates.

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