Article on Stuff opens a can of religious and secular worms!

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#1008857 19-Mar-2014 11:30

Klipspringer:
ubergeeknz:

It really is a waste of time trying to argue with someone who ignores fact and reason.

Well I have not yet seen the "fact"

You sent me a link to a single sided biased organization American website. (probably the first article that came up when you googled it)

Here is some proof that ghosts exist. Plenty of articles to support my claim :-P

scientific proof that ghosts exist

I seem to recall seeing an article on Google giving factual evidence that God was a woman. From Ethiopia.

I love Google.

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deadlyllama

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#1008860 19-Mar-2014 11:31

Handsomedan: Had a quick read of the article in question yesterday and was quite impressed with the balanced nature of the writing - especially as I have two primary-aged children who are about undertake "religious education" once a week at their state-run school.

Rather than debate the merits of religion vs science etc (as you can easily do that on the article feedback section), I'd rather focus on the quite varying responses from the readers of the article...from the incredibly balance to the quite frankly, unhinged.

Ah, that can of worms.

Stuff comments are ... stuff comments. When one person is claiming that the bible kills babies (how? by being dropped on them?) you're not going to get a productive conversation.

I think that "religion vs science" is a false dichotomy. I don't really know what the answer should be in the "religion in schools" debate, though. If you excise any mention of religion from state schools, does that mean you are implicitly normalising a worldview in which religion is abnormal and deviant?

[disclaimer: I have a science degree (ok, ok, majoring in compsci) and am currently working my way very slowly through a theology degree]

Lyderies

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#1008861 19-Mar-2014 11:32

I watched a TV show that showed god as a Samoan

I'm going to noob myself past judgement

Coil

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#1008863 19-Mar-2014 11:33

Lyderies: I watched a TV show that showed god as a Samoan

Must have run out of actors or he fit the bill. But we dont know what "god" looks like so how are we to judge?

Handsomedan

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#1008864 19-Mar-2014 11:33

Lyderies: I watched a TV show that showed god as a Samoan

Can't have been factual if it wasn't on Google.

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Klipspringer

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#1008867 19-Mar-2014 11:36

KiwiNZ:
Jaxson:
KiwiNZ: I feel the teaching of different belief structure should be along the lines of eg

This is brief and probably not correct but I use it for example only please don't shoot me...

A lesson on the origins of the universe

Teacher; there are this e who subscribe to the bing bang theory for the creation of the universe, the beginning being a singularity that resulted in a 'big bang' event.... blah blah

Pupil; are there any other ideas?

Teacher; yes there are, one is that the universe was created by a deity or god.

Pupil; where and who is this god?

Teacher; you need to discuss those ideas with you parents and they could take you somewhere to learn more of this.

Learning is about opening the mind and the world around us, therefore opposing ideas should not be hidden but discussed in a non emotional non biased basis.

By that approach the Scientific explanation should not be taught either, and the whole subject should be wrapped up in 'No one really knows' tape, whilst we move onto spelling, gramma and reading about what 'grazing ones knees' was like - back before the playground was wrapped in spongy rubber padding, all equipment was lowered to a max of 10cm high and we doused ourselves in hand sanitizer every 10 minutes whilst playing a computer game of soccer because no one wanted to use the playing field outside because there was a chance the sun might come out from behind that cloud over there....

You missed my point, my idea is that all theories should be advised of in a non emotional method and not professing that any are correct or incorrect, what we know about the Universe and it's origins can be summed up in a teaspoon.

So you saying only scientific facts should be taught at schools?

WOW. That goes against all scientific theories then.

Klipspringer

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#1008869 19-Mar-2014 11:37

Lyderies: I watched a TV show that showed god as a Samoan

I always thought Papa and Rangi were Maori.

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

Lyderies

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#1008870 19-Mar-2014 11:41

TimA:
Lyderies: I watched a TV show that showed god as a Samoan

Must have run out of actors or he fit the bill. But we dont know what "god" looks like so how are we to judge?

Could have been that it was made by some Laughing Samoans? Not sure

I'm going to noob myself past judgement

Klipspringer

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#1008879 19-Mar-2014 11:51

KiwiNZ: I feel the teaching of different belief structure should be along the lines of eg

This is brief and probably not correct but I use it for example only please don't shoot me...

A lesson on the origins of the universe

Teacher; there are this e who subscribe to the bing bang theory for the creation of the universe, the beginning being a singularity that resulted in a 'big bang' event.... blah blah

Pupil; are there any other ideas?

Teacher; yes there are, one is that the universe was created by a deity or god.

Pupil; where and who is this god?

Teacher; you need to discuss those ideas with you parents and they could take you somewhere to learn more of this.

Learning is about opening the mind and the world around us, therefore opposing ideas should not be hidden but discussed in a non emotional non biased basis.

By you own admission, the above example would not be discussed in school. The teacher should never have asked the question.

"A Lesson on the origins of the universe". In your example the teacher should be telling pupils that they need to discuss this "big bang" theory with their parents. You seem fine with teaching kids about scientific theories but you draw the line to religion? Im confused ...

testha

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#1008880 19-Mar-2014 11:54

Klipspringer:

So you saying only scientific facts should be taught at schools?

WOW. That goes against all scientific theories then.

How about you refresh your memory about the terms you use?

A hypothesis is either a suggested explanation for an observable phenomenon, or a reasoned prediction of a possible causal correlation among multiple phenomena.

In science, a theory is a tested, well-substantiated, unifying explanation for a set of verified, proven hypotheses. A theory is always backed by evidence; a hypothesis is only a suggested possible outcome, and is testable and falsifiable.

So yes I do want proven theories be taught at school.

freitasm

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#1008881 19-Mar-2014 11:56

Klipspringer: We already have Christian schools. Catholic Schools etc ... In these kinds of schools I don't see anything wrong with the religious instruction which goes along with it. Personally I would send my kids to a Christian school simply because these kinds of schools produce more disciplined, respectful kids ..

Source needed for this assertion, otherwise is just one opinion, not fact.

freitasm

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#1008883 19-Mar-2014 12:00

I have removed one mention of Godwin's Law. As per my post in another thread, THIS IS A GENERAL WARNING.

Anyone invoking Godwin Law from this point gets banned without warning BECAUSE THIS IS A WARNING.

Klipspringer

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#1008885 19-Mar-2014 12:02

testha:
Klipspringer:

So you saying only scientific facts should be taught at schools?

WOW. That goes against all scientific theories then.

How about you refresh your memory about the terms you use?

A hypothesis is either a suggested explanation for an observable phenomenon, or a reasoned prediction of a possible causal correlation among multiple phenomena.

In science, a theory is a tested, well-substantiated, unifying explanation for a set of verified, proven hypotheses. A theory is always backed by evidence; a hypothesis is only a suggested possible outcome, and is testable and falsifiable.

So yes I do want proven theories be taught at school.

I was referring to KiwiNZ's post about the big bang theory. We can't have "lessons" about the Big bang at schools but deny discussions about religion. In his example the teacher teaches the class' "A lesson on the origins of the universe". But when the pupil mentions a God, she tells the student to take that conversation home. Jaxson summed it up nicely, all these subjects should be wrapped up in 'No one really knows' tape.

But you right about scientific theories. Some are in proven, yet well sustained and we accept them as accurate. But at the end of the day, they all just theories.

freitasm

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#1008888 19-Mar-2014 12:05

"they all just theories" shows you don't understand the word usage difference. See post above explaining that scientific theory is based on facts and concrete evidence.

Until you understand that you will always have the wrong idea.

Geektastic

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#1008889 19-Mar-2014 12:05

Klipspringer:
Geektastic:

Not that I have children (fortunately!) but if I did, I would not want them being taught anything other than that religion is a method developed by early humans to explain things they could not understand.

If that were true it would be on the decrease.

Not really. By definition 49% of people are of below average intelligence....

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