Why does NZ continue to refuse to let actions have consequences?

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#1265862 23-Mar-2015 14:32

networkn:
Does it really? I think you should re-read it. I am saying there SHOULD be consequences, APPROPRIATE to the crime they committed (and taking into account all the factors such as age, intent, circumstance as would any sentencing anywhere in the world) and so that it affects ONLY those actually doing the behaviour and no-one else (Are you ok going to prison if I steal a car while you stand by and watch, or are somewhere in the same building?).

We're not talking about prison here, we're talking about a team of athletes and the possibility that the team will miss out on the privilege of representing their school in a sporting event due to the stupid actions of a couple of members of the team.

Edit: removed extra words

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#1265891 23-Mar-2015 14:56

i thought it's nothing to do with New Zealand per se. it's the parents of a couple of kids who have too much money and too much ego.

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#1265892 23-Mar-2015 14:57

nathan: has anyone learnt their lesson?

yes, the school don't mess with a lawyered up parent

LOL ... yes that's what is it

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#1265893 23-Mar-2015 14:58

trig42: While I agree there should be consequences, I feel that the consequences in this case did not fit the crime.

I rowed at High School, and you spend 4 years slogging your guts out to make it into a crew that can compete for the Maadi Cup. It is a big deal (I think the Maadi regatta is the biggest school sports event in NZ by numbers participating). Maadi winners generally go on to represent NZ at Junior level, next stop after that if you are dedicated (I wasn't :)) is World Championships and Olympic Games.
It also would not have been just these two that missed out. It says in the article they are both members of the Maadi crew, which is the Under 18 Boys 8, so Seven other people would have also had all their preparations dashed (6 other rowers, plus coxswain). You can't just substitute 2 crew members two days before the regatta starts - sure, they will have back-up rowers, but taking away 25% of your top crew will kill any chance you had.

These two did something pretty bloody stupid (you'd have to assume they'd been to an airport before, and could read the signs, so it was stupid, and probably fuelled by excitement and testosterone). They were not charged by the Police (had they been, then maybe the punishment would have fitted), and IMO they should face disciplinary action upon their return to the school, but to remove 4 years of hard work for 9 crew members effectively (and it is bloody hard - when I rowed 20 years ago, it was four 5.30am starts a week, plus afternoon, weekend and lunchtime training) is unfair. If they have made the schools 1st VIII, they are hard workers and have shown dedication - they aren't losers who sit on their chuffs all day making trouble (I was too tired to make trouble). I think their parents did the right thing. Let them row, punish them later (if they win Maadi, the school will conveniently forget about it by the way).

does it matter whether it fits the crime? try telling Graham Henry or Steve Hansen that. umm boss, your decisions have consequences that doesn't fit my crime sir. LOL

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#1265896 23-Mar-2015 14:59

johnr: They should of known better but I bet mummy and Daddy have lots of $$$ and think little Jonny could never do wrong,

Agree they should of been taken to the local police station locked up for a while and then made to get on the cheapest bus service back home, No flying home

ok i'm going to stop replying now ... but this :D

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#1265902 23-Mar-2015 15:03

We judge without the facts and let the Press condemn.

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#1265903 23-Mar-2015 15:04

meesham: We're not talking about prison here, we're talking about a team of athletes and the possibility that the team will miss out on the privilege of representing their school in a sporting event due to the stupid actions of a couple of members of the team.

At another level, political parties can lose office "due to the stupid actions of a couple of members of the team".
Even teflon-coated politicians sometimes face the consequences of their actions (but not often enough, in my opinion).

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Jeeves

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#1265958 23-Mar-2015 16:05

Because we all know that 16 year old's are the best people to judge consequences to their actions. Am I right?
That's why we give them privileges such as being able to vote, watch pornography, smoke, drink, join the army. Oh that's right, we don't, because they are scientifically incapable of making the rational consequential judgement calls on par of that of the adults that are making the 'lock em up and throw the key' type comments.

Hillary would have struggled to mount the horses that some people in this thread are sitting a'top.

What the parent's did was a bit extreme - however I am with networkn in that the punishment outweighed the crime. Let them compete and deal with their actions later - there is a myriad of punishments available.

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#1265978 23-Mar-2015 16:13

KiwiNZ: We judge without the facts and let the Press condemn.

what other facts do we need in this case? like the kids made a bet for $1000 and first date?

networkn

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#1265979 23-Mar-2015 16:16

Jeeves: Because we all know that 16 year old's are the best people to judge consequences to their actions. Am I right?
That's why we give them privileges such as being able to vote, watch pornography, smoke, drink, join the army. Oh that's right, we don't, because they are scientifically incapable of making the rational consequential judgement calls on par of that of the adults that are making the 'lock em up and throw the key' type comments.

Hillary would have struggled to mount the horses that some people in this thread are sitting a'top.

What the parent's did was a bit extreme - however I am with networkn in that the punishment outweighed the crime. Let them compete and deal with their actions later - there is a myriad of punishments available.

What I see from my own unscientific polling of office and clients I have discussed this with:

1) Parents tend to side with the "punishment shouldn't automatically stop them competing, and certainly shouldn't affect kids who had no part in it"
2) People with no kids generally seem to say "lock em up throw away the key"

I think some of us here have forgotten the understanding we received and the opportunities we were offered to make mistakes and get appropriate ramifications.

I as a teenager would have been no more able to physically stop my team mates from jumping on a carosel, and neither should I have been required to, to avoid punishment. At the end of the day, if the other kids had jumped on them to stop it, then there would assault charges and violence claims being made.

They didn't rape, murder, deface, assault or steal, the consequences need to be inline with the crime.

heylinb4nz

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#1266013 23-Mar-2015 16:30

Jeeves: Because we all know that 16 year old's are the best people to judge consequences to their actions. Am I right?
That's why we give them privileges such as being able to vote, watch pornography, smoke, drink, join the army. Oh that's right, we don't, because they are scientifically incapable of making the rational consequential judgement calls on par of that of the adults that are making the 'lock em up and throw the key' type comments.

Hillary would have struggled to mount the horses that some people in this thread are sitting a'top.

What the parent's did was a bit extreme - however I am with networkn in that the punishment outweighed the crime. Let them compete and deal with their actions later - there is a myriad of punishments available.

Yet we let them drive cars ? hmmmmmm.

Perhaps half the problem is we treat them (16 year olds) like children and they think they get away with things. They are much smarter than we give them credit for, hell even toddlers have developed the brain capacity to manipulate parents, so what do you think they are capable of at 16 years old ??

6FIEND

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#1266016 23-Mar-2015 16:32

To pose the OP's question another way...

When did NZ transition from:
"My team and I have been working tirelessly towards our sporting goal, so we will ensure that nothing we do puts that objective at risk"
...to
"My team and I have been working tirelessly towards our sporting goal, so you'd better not punish us in such as way that puts that objective at risk"

???

I'm getting royally sick of individuals holding up the "I'm a sportsperson" card and using it as a defence against being held accountable for their actions as any other person would.

Speaking to this particular incident, I'm not particularly surprised that some teenagers acted up on a sporting trip. I am surprised that they seem to think that being sent home again is somehow unwarranted. I am shocked that the parents have taken the step of opposing the school in the way that they have. I am appalled that one of the parents concerned is the Chairman of the associated sporting club. I am aghast that a High Court Judge has issued an injunction.

I'm so out of touch :-)

heylinb4nz

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#1266017 23-Mar-2015 16:33

networkn:

They didn't rape, murder, deface, assault or steal, the consequences need to be inline with the crime.

Bring on the wet bus ticket.

So if an 8 year old did it and got verbally told off.

what pray tell does a 16 year old deserve ?

what would a 18 year old deserve ?

nathan

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#1266028 23-Mar-2015 16:43

I've always wanted to go for a ride on a baggage conveyer belt

networkn

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#1266045 23-Mar-2015 17:07

heylinb4nz:
networkn:

They didn't rape, murder, deface, assault or steal, the consequences need to be inline with the crime.

Bring on the wet bus ticket.

So if an 8 year old did it and got verbally told off.

what pray tell does a 16 year old deserve ?

what would a 18 year old deserve ?

Oh good grief.

I am not saying give them a slap with a wet bus ticket, I'm saying find some other horrible demeaning, embarrassing unpleasant punishment, that doesn't put 4 years of hard work for EVERYONE (Including those that played no part in it) at risk.

Do you expect that if I am at your house and I steal your neighbours car, that we should share a jail cell, or do community service or whatever the punishment is, together? It's a very similar thing.

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