The Great Media Gun purchace Beatup

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#1410954 22-Oct-2015 10:45

DizzyD: Its a .22. Hardly a gun.

Huh?

Maybe ask say, the Crewe family or many other victims families of this type of firearm the same question and I am sure they will disagree.

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#1410955 22-Oct-2015 10:47

DizzyD: Its a .22. Hardly a gun.

No its not a Gun it's a Rifle.

.22 can kill.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#1410956 22-Oct-2015 10:47

DizzyD:
SaltyNZ:
mdooher:
DizzyD: Its a .22. Hardly a gun.

I must say they did pick the cheapest one in the world, TV3 didn't want to spend too much I guess

Well, they only wanted to show it could be done. They didn't need to purchase nuclear missiles to do so.

Well unless you are a boy scout, what on earth do you want to do with a .22? Shoot possums?

Preferred calibre for Mossad etc for assassinations apparently. Subsonic with silencer, and forces the assassin to get close enough to be sure of correctly identifying the target, less chance of the bullet passing though and hitting bystanders.
I can't be bothered looking for a cite, but think I'd accept the commonly made claim that more people die from .22 calibre accidents or crime than any other calibre.
I've shot goats with .22. They're just as dead with one good shot to the head at 50-100 metres as they would be if you used a cannon.

robjg63

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#1410958 22-Oct-2015 10:50

graemeh:
robjg63: They (TV3) have highlighted that the current system is is sloppy.
Its easy to buy a firearm fraudulently.
Do think a real crook would worry for a second about using stolen credentials from a licenced firearm owner? - No they wouldnt.
And its sounds like they have been doing this recently in rapidly increasing numbers.

Can you point to some evidence for this claim about criminals fraudulently buying guns?

I thought the preferred purchasing model for criminals was to steal the gun.

There was a mention of something like 58 fraudulent purchases in the last X months that the police were investigating - sorry - I didnt write the details down.

The fact the police have moved immediately to change the process proves the current system is flawed.

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#1410970 22-Oct-2015 10:57

graemeh:

I thought the preferred purchasing model for criminals was to steal the gun.

People who have guns stolen from them report it, generally. If you wanted a gun to do something naughty, wouldn't you prefer to get it in a way that didn't immediately get the police on your tail?

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#1410975 22-Oct-2015 11:06

SaltyNZ:
graemeh:

I thought the preferred purchasing model for criminals was to steal the gun.

People who have guns stolen from them report it, generally. If you wanted a gun to do something naughty, wouldn't you prefer to get it in a way that didn't immediately get the police on your tail?

That makes perfect sense but fortunately most criminals are not that smart.

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#1410976 22-Oct-2015 11:09

graemeh:
SaltyNZ:
graemeh:

I thought the preferred purchasing model for criminals was to steal the gun.

People who have guns stolen from them report it, generally. If you wanted a gun to do something naughty, wouldn't you prefer to get it in a way that didn't immediately get the police on your tail?

That makes perfect sense but fortunately most criminals are not that smart.

Fair point, yes.

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#1410978 22-Oct-2015 11:13

robjg63: They (TV3) have highlighted that the current system is is sloppy.
Its easy to buy a firearm fraudulently.
Do think a real crook would worry for a second about using stolen credentials from a licenced firearm owner? - No they wouldnt.
And its sounds like they have been doing this recently in rapidly increasing numbers.
.

What they proved was that someone with a firearms licence who was previously known to the shop can order a gun online.

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#1410988 22-Oct-2015 11:22

mdooher:
robjg63: They (TV3) have highlighted that the current system is is sloppy.
Its easy to buy a firearm fraudulently.
Do think a real crook would worry for a second about using stolen credentials from a licenced firearm owner? - No they wouldnt.
And its sounds like they have been doing this recently in rapidly increasing numbers.
.

What they proved was that someone with a firearms licence who was previously known to the shop can order a gun online.

You keep saying this, but no citation or prove? Even David Tipple said they were lucky because they got the gun license number correct. He was very clear on this in yesterday's interview.

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#1411017 22-Oct-2015 11:56

SaltyNZ:
kingjj: but she's made it a shed load harder for honest purchasers to do it online now.

Well, my personal opinion is that 'lethal weapon' and 'easy to do online' should only go in the same sentence if that sentence is 'We are not going to make purchasing a lethal weapon easy to do online.' Absent transactions have been, since the beginning, and always will be, the easiest to subvert.

A kitchen knife or a screwdriver - or even a biro - can be a lethal weapon. Should we stop the sale of those on line as well?

Why, if you have a firearms licence, should you not be able to buy a firearm on line?

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#1411018 22-Oct-2015 11:56

SaltyNZ:
kingjj: but she's made it a shed load harder for honest purchasers to do it online now.

Well, my personal opinion is that 'lethal weapon' and 'easy to do online' should only go in the same sentence if that sentence is 'We are not going to make purchasing a lethal weapon easy to do online.' Absent transactions have been, since the beginning, and always will be, the easiest to subvert.

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#1411022 22-Oct-2015 11:58

SaltyNZ:
mdooher:
DizzyD: Its a .22. Hardly a gun.

I must say they did pick the cheapest one in the world, TV3 didn't want to spend too much I guess

Well, they only wanted to show it could be done. They didn't need to purchase nuclear missiles to do so.

An aside:

When I was at school, we had some revised school rules that said "No air rifles, catapults, nuclear weapons etc are permitted on school premises"

We held a Moot (school meeting) and voted to change the wording to omit the 'nuclear weapons' bit on the basis that any pupil intelligent and skilled enough to acquire or construct such a device was clearly to be respected and should be allowed to keep it!

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#1411025 22-Oct-2015 12:01

Fred99:
DizzyD:
SaltyNZ:
mdooher:
DizzyD: Its a .22. Hardly a gun.

I must say they did pick the cheapest one in the world, TV3 didn't want to spend too much I guess

Well, they only wanted to show it could be done. They didn't need to purchase nuclear missiles to do so.

Well unless you are a boy scout, what on earth do you want to do with a .22? Shoot possums?

Preferred calibre for Mossad etc for assassinations apparently. Subsonic with silencer, and forces the assassin to get close enough to be sure of correctly identifying the target, less chance of the bullet passing though and hitting bystanders.
I can't be bothered looking for a cite, but think I'd accept the commonly made claim that more people die from .22 calibre accidents or crime than any other calibre.
I've shot goats with .22. They're just as dead with one good shot to the head at 50-100 metres as they would be if you used a cannon.

True. It always annoys me when the meeja use expressions like 'high powered assault rifle' to imply that, simply because the rifle is an 'assault rifle' it is somehow more powerful than a plain rifle without the 'assault rifle' appearance which uses the same ammunition.

They appear incapable of grasping that the 'power' comes from the bullet, not the rifle.

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#1411026 22-Oct-2015 12:03

Geektastic:
SaltyNZ:
kingjj: but she's made it a shed load harder for honest purchasers to do it online now.

Well, my personal opinion is that 'lethal weapon' and 'easy to do online' should only go in the same sentence if that sentence is 'We are not going to make purchasing a lethal weapon easy to do online.' Absent transactions have been, since the beginning, and always will be, the easiest to subvert.

A kitchen knife or a screwdriver - or even a biro - can be a lethal weapon. Should we stop the sale of those on line as well?

Why, if you have a firearms licence, should you not be able to buy a firearm on line?

Agreed, but it appears the system needs strengthening and maybe a stand down after the order is placed before dispatch and the Police advised of the order and requiring Police OK before final dispatch approved...... I think.

But it has been a million years since I owned firearms and not that up on current regulations.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#1411029 22-Oct-2015 12:06

SaltyNZ:
cruxis: When fair go do under age alcohol store stings, they make sure they dont complete a sale to avoid breaking the law.

She should have shown the loophole without breaking the law. She should get proscuted let a judge decide her fate.

I think we need to be careful with this attitude. There's a reason why there are public interest/journalism exceptions for many laws. In this particular case it appears the police were already aware of, and have closed, the loophole used. But what if they weren't? Our government isn't typically very responsive to being told privately about problems. (Yes, not just our government, and yes, many reasons why). Sometimes our society needs this kind of thing to happen very, very publicly in order to force things to change.

Why, just think, the government would never have had to change the law to make GCSB spying on kiwis legal if Dotcom hadn't made it public. :-/

However, they could easily have shown this WITHOUT actually doing it, simply by writing to the police and explaining it.

Of course, that would get no ratings. There is no public interest in the actual breaking of the law, since it was not necessary to do so in order to remedy the defect in procedure.

EG if I work for Bloggs & Co and realise that their petty cash procedure would allow me to receive $100 a week with no justification due to a procedural flaw, I can remedy that by meeting with the Finance Manager and illustrating the point in a discussion - there is no need for me to steal money from them for a while just to show it can be done....

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