Spread of Islam - Something to be concerned about or not ?

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#1350429 23-Jul-2015 14:23

DizzyD: Do we live in a country where we can choose to wear what we like or not?

We do not. I can think of many things that you could put on a t-shirt that would get you lynched by locals.

If you set out to deliberately offend a portion of society, don't be surprised when they bite back.

MikeB4: There is a difference between free speech and hate speech the former does not make the later okay.

mclean

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#1350432 23-Jul-2015 14:28

heylinb4nz: Spread of Islam - Something to be concerned about or not?

Two parts to this question - could it happen, and would we be better off if it did?

History gives us the answer to the first part. Thankfully the last big spread of Islam brought Europe out of the dark ages.

Would I be concerned if NZ was to become an islamic state? That's a harder one to answer. But if I list say 10 countries in the modern world that I would LEAST like to call home, there is sadly a common denominator which gives me a clue.

heylinb4nz

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#1350433 23-Jul-2015 14:29

BTR: Islam isn't the problem, its extremists which cause all of the issues, all religions have extremists and we should be worried about all of them.
.

All of them ?

- Westboro Baptist Church being one of the most hate ridden ones in the US if not the world...but what is the extent of their violence...hate speech and protests ?
- Israel and its persecution of Palestinians...warrented some may say...but still not as extreme as acts committed in the name of Islam.

Yeah there was the crusades and the spanish inquisition etc, but that is the past, and most of us are interested in the now ie what will happen to non Islamic people in the next 50 years ?

Propaganda aside if you had to choose a religion based on the actions of its followers today and the writings they follow in their doctrine which one would you want to constitute the majority of the world ? be honest, who would you trust more not to slay you as a non believer ? Catholic, Protestant, Jews, Islam ?

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#1350435 23-Jul-2015 14:35

DizzyD:
MikeB4:

What is to be gained by wearing "Prophet" Mohammed demoralizing T-Shirt around town?

There is a difference between free speech and hate speech the former does not make the later okay.

What is gained?
Proof that Islamist will not tolerate it.

Sure the same can be said about other faiths too. The difference however is that other faiths will mostly ignore//moan/withdraw. Islamists will respond to this act with violence. Why is that?

Do we live in a country where we can choose to wear what we like or not?

And that breeds hatred and leads to extremism. It gains you nothing that is positive so let others pursue their lives unmolested.

heylinb4nz

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#1350437 23-Jul-2015 14:38

mclean:
heylinb4nz: Spread of Islam - Something to be concerned about or not?

Two parts to this question - could it happen, and would we be better off if it did?

History gives us the answer to the first part. Thankfully the last big spread of Islam brought Europe out of the dark ages.

Would I be concerned if NZ was to become an islamic state? That's a harder one to answer. But if I list say 10 countries in the modern world that I would LEAST like to call home, there is sadly a common denominator which gives me a clue.

Lack of a democratic government ???

I once drew this conclusion as well, but when you throw poorness, desperation and a crappy government into the mix you have to wonder is Islam the cause, the result of, or something completely seperate and un-related.

The best we can do is watch places like UK and France to see what happens.

If \ when they become 80%> Islamic population and no ill effects, then all good. If not, then hopefully we haven't already reach a tipping point here in NZ/AUS/USA. Might be a great idea to move to China or Japan one day though :)

DizzyD

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#1350438 23-Jul-2015 14:40

andrewNZ:
DizzyD: Do we live in a country where we can choose to wear what we like or not?

We do not. I can think of many things that you could put on a t-shirt that would get you lynched by locals.

If you set out to deliberately offend a portion of society, don't be surprised when they bite back.

Great, I think I will start my own religion where Pink Pigs offend me, NZ should be sympathetic towards me and I will expect everyone to not wear T-Shirts with Pink Pigs. Better still I will start a religion where muslim headscarf's offend me.

The answer is not trying to make people change for your faith/religion. Its rather learning to be tolerant. Not banning religion, but allowing for all religions where we are all tolerant.

MikeB4: There is a difference between free speech and hate speech the former does not make the later okay.

Whats the difference between a cartoon criticizing my religion of anti-Pink Pigs or some funny prophet Muhammed cartoon?

andrewNZ

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#1350441 23-Jul-2015 14:45

I think this video somewhat represents parts of the current Arab world vs Western world conflict.

I feel we are approaching the halfway mark of the video.

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MikeB4

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#1350442 23-Jul-2015 14:46

DizzyD:
andrewNZ:
DizzyD: Do we live in a country where we can choose to wear what we like or not?

We do not. I can think of many things that you could put on a t-shirt that would get you lynched by locals.

If you set out to deliberately offend a portion of society, don't be surprised when they bite back.

Great, I think I will start my own religion where Pink Pigs offend me, NZ should be sympathetic towards me and I will expect everyone to not wear T-Shirts with Pink Pigs.

MikeB4: There is a difference between free speech and hate speech the former does not make the later okay.

Whats the difference between a cartoon criticizing my religion of anti-Pink Pigs or some funny prophet Muhammed cartoon?

Why does one need to wear or produce something that denigrates anyone? it is pointless.

MikeB4

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#1350444 23-Jul-2015 14:49

heylinb4nz:
mclean:
heylinb4nz: Spread of Islam - Something to be concerned about or not?

Two parts to this question - could it happen, and would we be better off if it did?

History gives us the answer to the first part. Thankfully the last big spread of Islam brought Europe out of the dark ages.

Would I be concerned if NZ was to become an islamic state? That's a harder one to answer. But if I list say 10 countries in the modern world that I would LEAST like to call home, there is sadly a common denominator which gives me a clue.

Lack of a democratic government ???

I once drew this conclusion as well, but when you throw poorness, desperation and a crappy government into the mix you have to wonder is Islam the cause, the result of, or something completely seperate and un-related.

The best we can do is watch places like UK and France to see what happens.

If \ when they become 80%> Islamic population and no ill effects, then all good. If not, then hopefully we haven't already reach a tipping point here in NZ/AUS/USA. Might be a great idea to move to China or Japan one day though :)

I remember similar being said during the 70's concerning Pacific Island immigration and that all proved to be nonsense, it will be the same bollocks about Asian immigration that we are hearing now in NZ.

heylinb4nz

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#1350445 23-Jul-2015 14:51

DizzyD:
andrewNZ:
DizzyD: Do we live in a country where we can choose to wear what we like or not?

We do not. I can think of many things that you could put on a t-shirt that would get you lynched by locals.

If you set out to deliberately offend a portion of society, don't be surprised when they bite back.

Great, I think I will start my own religion where Pink Pigs offend me, NZ should be sympathetic towards me and I will expect everyone to not wear T-Shirts with Pink Pigs.

MikeB4: There is a difference between free speech and hate speech the former does not make the later okay.

Whats the difference between a cartoon criticizing my religion of anti-Pink Pigs or some funny prophet Muhammed cartoon?

Other than BS liberal legislation that protects all the religions they approve of, nothing really.

Bit like Australians killing Kiwis due to an Aussie joke

or

Holden owners cutting off the heads of ford owners with the pissing on sticker

or

In my case I'm an avid shooter, hunter, reloader and I get really annoyed when the anti-gun crowd attack my sport\hobby that is a big part of my life...I take it more seriously than some people take their religion...doesn't give me some automatic right to go and empty a mag into them.

Everyone is entitled to have their passions and beliefs, and also voice their opposition..without fear of getting shot\beat up or beheaded.

Id like to think though people were decent enough to be tactful and thoughtful enough about where they tell jokes, who they show drawings to, and what T-shirts they wear in public.

DizzyD

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#1350446 23-Jul-2015 14:51

MikeB4:
Why does one need to wear or produce something that denigrates anyone? it is pointless.

Not saying we should do it.
I was using it as an example to illustrate the difference between Islam and other faiths.
Why with Islam is their this retaliation of violence over sometimes very petty things? Do we really want this here in NZ?

bazzer

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#1350447 23-Jul-2015 14:53

DizzyD:
MikeB4:

What is to be gained by wearing "Prophet" Mohammed demoralizing T-Shirt around town?

There is a difference between free speech and hate speech the former does not make the later okay.

What is gained?
Proof that Islamist will not tolerate it.

Sure the same can be said about other faiths too. The difference however is that other faiths will mostly ignore//moan/withdraw. Islamists will respond to this act with violence. Why is that?

Do we live in a country where we can choose to wear what we like or not?

We do not.

http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/chief-censor-bans-heavy-metal-tshirt-of-filth-2008070223#axzz3ggBIQjq2

MikeB4

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#1350448 23-Jul-2015 14:57

DizzyD:
MikeB4:
Why does one need to wear or produce something that denigrates anyone? it is pointless.

Not saying we should do it.
I was using it as an example to illustrate the difference between Islam and other faiths.
Why with Islam is their this retaliation of violence over sometimes very petty things? Do we really want this here in NZ?

No we don't want it here so the way to avoid it is simple, "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, religion, and belief, including the right to adopt and to hold opinions without interference."

heylinb4nz

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#1350450 23-Jul-2015 15:02

http://www.allposters.com/IMAGES/TSHIRTS/138007A.jpg

Wow that T-shirt is pretty extreme. I can see the message though the band is trying to portray

Christians would politely denounce the shirt, christian extremists would most likely protest, in fact Im certain if you walked through vatican city wearing it, no harm would come to you.

on the other hand, if you swapped Jesus for another prophet I do wonder what would happen ????

Geektastic

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#1350462 23-Jul-2015 15:08

Personally I have grave concerns for anyone that believes in anything for which zero evidence exists.

In a sane world, it would be labelled insanity and get you medicated. As Bertrand Russell said

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes.
But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.

If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

which was further extended by the most excellent Richard Dawkins

"The reason organized religion merits outright hostility is that, unlike belief in Russell's teapot, religion is powerful, influential, tax-exempt and systematically passed on to children too young to defend themselves. Children are not compelled to spend their formative years memorizing loony books about teapots. Government-subsidized schools don't exclude children whose parents prefer the wrong shape of teapot. Teapot-believers don't stone teapot-unbelievers, teapot-apostates, teapot-heretics and teapot-blasphemers to death. Mothers don't warn their sons off marrying teapot-shiksas whose parents believe in three teapots rather than one. People who put the milk in first don't kneecap those who put the tea in first."

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