Just experienced our first NZ crime.

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#1265648 23-Mar-2015 12:09

DravidDavid:

I lost thousands of dollars worth of laptops. The thief was caught, but we have to wait out his 6 month prison term first, before he has the opportunity to pay us back out of his benefit. Justice.

Same here when a scrote stole my car. When he was in jail, I got nothing. Then I got next to nothing, because his previous victims were still getting paid *their* reparations. Then he went back to jail.

This, incidentally, is why I am in support of paying compensation to prisoners who get beaten up in jail. They can then pay out the reparations that they owe. In fact, this would be a win-win... not only do you get your money back, but you get the pleasure of knowing how it came about.

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#1265673 23-Mar-2015 12:40

BarTender:

The problem is without touching near godwin or other nasty sides of present and prior history is... You have to deal with them at some point as they are continuing to breed.

Without doing something to break the cycle then the cycle will continue and continue to escalate.

Feeding kids in school, I know it won't fix the problem. But doing what we are currently doing isn't helping much either, only seems to be getting worse from what I can see if the average number of homeless on the street I see day to day is anything to go by. But if an investment of $10k in feeding the poor saves one bed in prison, to me that's a pretty good ROI.

I think it's a very very sad indictment on our society that Kidscan even need to exist in a country where our principal source of income is exporting food.

The new homeless on Wellington's streets are generally wearing nicer shoes than I do. We now seem to have a problem with the teenagers whose parents have never expected anything from them, given them everything, and now they expect society to give them hand outs so they can buy drugs.

The problem of hungry kids in schools is being mis-reported, and the idea that simply mass feeding children is going to solve anything is wrong All it is going to do is cause worse downstream problems. Some children do come from families where they can not buy enough food. These families need to be supplied with food so all of the family can be healthy and productive. Some kids come from families where the parents think a pie and a can of L&P is suitable for breakfast or lunch. These families need specific interventions to help them gain basic life skills, pretty much the whole point of the Whanau ora programme. With these families with poor life skills, you have an issue where if you start taking away basic responsibilities such as feeding their children, they will not respond by spending their "food money" on other essentials, they'll plough it into alcohol and tobacco. It's already well understood how increasing exercise tax on alcohol and tobacco has a major negative on the disadvantage, i.e. we know the problem already exists.

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#1265710 23-Mar-2015 13:20

Glassboy: The new homeless on Wellington's streets are generally wearing nicer shoes than I do. We now seem to have a problem with the teenagers whose parents have never expected anything from them, given them everything, and now they expect society to give them hand outs so they can buy drugs.

The problem of hungry kids in schools is being mis-reported, and the idea that simply mass feeding children is going to solve anything is wrong All it is going to do is cause worse downstream problems. Some children do come from families where they can not buy enough food. These families need to be supplied with food so all of the family can be healthy and productive. Some kids come from families where the parents think a pie and a can of L&P is suitable for breakfast or lunch. These families need specific interventions to help them gain basic life skills, pretty much the whole point of the Whanau ora programme. With these families with poor life skills, you have an issue where if you start taking away basic responsibilities such as feeding their children, they will not respond by spending their "food money" on other essentials, they'll plough it into alcohol and tobacco. It's already well understood how increasing exercise tax on alcohol and tobacco has a major negative on the disadvantage, i.e. we know the problem already exists.

I take exception to the vast majority of assumptions / statements you have made above. But lets break a few things down.
- If the Wellington homeless are generally wearing nicer shoes than you do. You must be looking at different homeless since the ones I see look pretty destitute.
- Agree on teenagers who are cashed up and just want to get high. Again I think it's an over-generalisation. And they represent a small minority of the criminal offenders. As what happened with my best friend, they tend to take too many drugs and end their own life of their own accord.

- The mis-reporting of hungry kids in schools. Since you are also in Wellington, I am sure we can jointly take a trip down to Cannons Creek or Naenae as it's only a 20 min drive from the CBD and you could spend some time with the Primary and Secondary schools there. Spend some time with the Principal and get their view on if hungry kids going to schools with parents struggling to survive in a cycle of debt and under payment. Parents who don't drink, smoke or any of the other excuses commonly thrown around. Yes there are wasters but they would be the exception rather than the rule. But even if they are the exception, does it mean we want the children to follow in their parents footsteps? Would probably take less than an hour out of your life and I suspect would be very enlightening. Any time, feel free to PM me.

Still didn't address my primary argument. Which is for a country who primary source of export revenues exporting dairy that a company like Kidscan needs to exist? Plus with so many schools on their books do you really believe that those schools would sign up to just get free food just for the heck of it if there wasn't a true need? And that John Campbell has just been on his hobby horse visiting schools and pre-warning them first to make sure they go to the worst class to get the most dramatic effect?

Offer stands for a little tour of our less fortunate. Anytime.

Glassboy

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#1265748 23-Mar-2015 13:36

BarTender:

I take exception to the vast majority of assumptions / statements you have made above. But lets break a few things down.
- If the Wellington homeless are generally wearing nicer shoes than you do. You must be looking at different homeless since the ones I see look pretty destitute.
- Agree on teenagers who are cashed up and just want to get high. Again I think it's an over-generalisation. And they represent a small minority of the criminal offenders. As what happened with my best friend, they tend to take too many drugs and end their own life of their own accord.

I said new homeless. There are still homeless who are mentally ill or addicted but I see fewer on the streets than I have in the last thirty years. Less transvestites too. I miss the trannies, they added a bit of colour.

- The mis-reporting of hungry kids in schools. Since you are also in Wellington, I am sure we can jointly take a trip down to Cannons Creek or Naenae as it's only a 20 min drive from the CBD and you could spend some time with the Primary and Secondary schools there. Spend some time with the Principal and get their view on if hungry kids going to schools with parents struggling to survive in a cycle of debt and under payment. Parents who don't drink, smoke or any of the other excuses commonly thrown around. Yes there are wasters but they would be the exception rather than the rule. But even if they are the exception, does it mean we want the children to follow in their parents footsteps? Would probably take less than an hour out of your life and I suspect would be very enlightening. Any time, feel free to PM me.

Want to go to Epuni School and look at the community garden that parents have set up to teach the children valuable life skills and to provide food for families without enough? Want to walk around Naenae and look where there used to be vegetable gardens in homes up until the eighties\nineties? Where it was unusual for any children to be hungry, growing up on land that used to be productive farms and market gardens? Where neighbours used to share what they grew?

Still didn't address my primary argument. Which is for a country who primary source of export revenues exporting dairy that a company like Kidscan needs to exist? Plus with so many schools on their books do you really believe that those schools would sign up to just get free food just for the heck of it if there wasn't a true need? And that John Campbell has just been on his hobby horse visiting schools and pre-warning them first to make sure they go to the worst class to get the most dramatic effect?

Offer stands for a little tour of our less fortunate. Anytime.

No thanks. I get tired of hearing how there's a simple little feel good quick fix to complex multi generational problems. If you have spare time on your hands, there are plenty of community organisations that need help.

MikeB4

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#1265756 23-Mar-2015 13:45

Years of experience has shown me that there is real poverty and hardship in NZ and that the percentage of those in that situation by choice is very small. Some have made wrong life decisions and mistakes but the majority it is as result of tragedy, misfortune, the actions and decisions of others and circumstances beyond their control.

MikeB4

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#1265759 23-Mar-2015 13:48

Epuni School is an example of how a State school can be a community asset, it is alas rare. It also has a higher socioeconomic community around it as well as a poor socioeconomic economic community around it. It is kind of unique.

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#1266022 23-Mar-2015 16:36

KiwiNZ: Epuni School is an example of how a State school can be a community asset, it is alas rare. It also has a higher socioeconomic community around it as well as a poor socioeconomic economic community around it. It is kind of unique.

It is I believe, a Decile 3 school. The "higher socioeconomic community" (if you're talking of the what is to the South) send their children to Waterloo School. But because of the large number of state houses in Lower Hutt, there are few primary schools that don't span a wide degree of parental income ranges. Even the Decile 10 schools have children who live in some degree of poverty.

As higher decile schools get less funding, the parents fund raise more than . It's a bit of a pity actually. There's a lot the children of lower decile schools could can from being involved in the fund raising event like school fairs. They raise money, they build community, and they teach that working to a goal achieves results. The children also have more respect for their school grounds and buildings when they have helped raise money to maintain them.

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#1266044 23-Mar-2015 17:02

Glassboy:

- The mis-reporting of hungry kids in schools. Since you are also in Wellington, I am sure we can jointly take a trip down to Cannons Creek or Naenae as it's only a 20 min drive from the CBD and you could spend some time with the Primary and Secondary schools there. Spend some time with the Principal and get their view on if hungry kids going to schools with parents struggling to survive in a cycle of debt and under payment. Parents who don't drink, smoke or any of the other excuses commonly thrown around. Yes there are wasters but they would be the exception rather than the rule. But even if they are the exception, does it mean we want the children to follow in their parents footsteps? Would probably take less than an hour out of your life and I suspect would be very enlightening. Any time, feel free to PM me.

Want to go to Epuni School and look at the community garden that parents have set up to teach the children valuable life skills and to provide food for families without enough? Want to walk around Naenae and look where there used to be vegetable gardens in homes up until the eighties\nineties? Where it was unusual for any children to be hungry, growing up on land that used to be productive farms and market gardens? Where neighbours used to share what they grew?

I'm sure Conrad will be elated to hear his hard efforts at Epuni are being used as a reason to again blame parents.
I'll mention it to him when I see him on Sunday.

Glassboy:

Still didn't address my primary argument. This is for a country who primary source of export revenues exporting dairy that a company like Kidscan needs to exist? Plus with so many schools on their books do you really believe that those schools would sign up to just get free food just for the heck of it if there wasn't a true need? And that John Campbell has just been on his hobby horse visiting schools and pre-warning them first to make sure they go to the worst class to get the most dramatic effect?

Offer stands for a little tour of our less fortunate. Anytime.

No thanks. I get tired of hearing how there's a simple little feel good quick fix to complex multi generational problems. If you have spare time on your hands, there are plenty of community organisations that need help.

When did I say this was a simple feel good that would solve all the worlds ills???

What I actually said is the current system isn't working and things are getting worse between the haves and the havenots.

I do my fair share for community projects. What do you do about it or perhaps you are just comfortable with the current situation and see no reason to change it. Having lived overseas in gated communities with patrols. I sadly see things on the same path in this country. Hence why I see increased crime as inevitable and building more jails as a result.

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#1266046 23-Mar-2015 17:08

BarTender:

I'm sure Conrad will be elated to hear his hard efforts at Epuni are being used as a reason to again blame parents.
I'll mention it to him when I see him on Sunday.

Who is blaming parents? Why do you constantly take what people say out of context or simply put words in their mouth? For someone who apes the moral high ground, you don't do your arguments much good with the behaviour.

alasta

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#1266275 23-Mar-2015 21:28

Providing targetted assistance to the kids isn't necessarily a bad idea but it treats the symptoms rather than the underlying problem. If the cost of housing weren't so excessive then the parents might be able to afford to feed their own kids but you won't see the government do much about that because landlords are voters too.

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#1266297 23-Mar-2015 21:58

alasta: Providing targetted assistance to the kids isn't necessarily a bad idea but it treats the symptoms rather than the underlying problem. If the cost of housing weren't so excessive then the parents might be able to afford to feed their own kids but you won't see the government do much about that because landlords are voters too.

That's not the reason. If that was case they wouldn't have scrapped the benefits of owning properties in LAQCs. In global terms our rental costs are cheap.

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#1266311 23-Mar-2015 22:29

Glassboy:
BarTender:

I'm sure Conrad will be elated to hear his hard efforts at Epuni are being used as a reason to again blame parents.
I'll mention it to him when I see him on Sunday.

Who is blaming parents? Why do you constantly take what people say out of context or simply put words in their mouth? For someone who apes the moral high ground, you don't do your arguments much good with the behaviour.

Ummm...

Glassboy:
Geektastic: What we have is too many unskilled people for the available resources. You need to reduce the people and concentrate on getting the right sort. Supporting humans in a society that are unable to contribute usefully is an illogical and expensive exercise.

I love the way you're demonstrating you're a worthwhile human being, and should be part of a civil society. Bravo.

So this isn't eugenics right??? As that's certainly how I read the tone of the above post you are agreeing and see you celebrating. Lets just stop supporting the poor, and their children as it's just a expensive waste of time.

Or you didn't say that, like I didn't say that feeding children would solve all the problems. But I did say at least it was trying to do something about it. Something that was just voted down because our PM rang three schools and decided its nonsense children go to school hungry.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/24/if-you-dont-understand-poverty-youre-a-sociopath

Glassboy

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#1266326 23-Mar-2015 22:57

BarTender:
Glassboy:
BarTender:

I'm sure Conrad will be elated to hear his hard efforts at Epuni are being used as a reason to again blame parents.
I'll mention it to him when I see him on Sunday.

Who is blaming parents? Why do you constantly take what people say out of context or simply put words in their mouth? For someone who apes the moral high ground, you don't do your arguments much good with the behaviour.

Ummm...

Glassboy:
Geektastic: What we have is too many unskilled people for the available resources. You need to reduce the people and concentrate on getting the right sort. Supporting humans in a society that are unable to contribute usefully is an illogical and expensive exercise.

I love the way you're demonstrating you're a worthwhile human being, and should be part of a civil society. Bravo.

So this isn't eugenics right??? As that's certainly how I read the tone of the above post you are agreeing and see you celebrating. Lets just stop supporting the poor, and their children as it's just a expensive waste of time.

Or you didn't say that, like I didn't say that feeding children would solve all the problems. But I did say at least it was trying to do something about it. Something that was just voted down because our PM rang three schools and decided its nonsense children go to school hungry.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/24/if-you-dont-understand-poverty-youre-a-sociopath

It was sarcasm; it's pretty much guaranteed anyone ranting about sub-humans is suffering from the Dunning–Kruger effect, or is just an arse.

The bill didn't get voted down because the PM rang three schools, that would be stupid. It got voted down because it would have provided positive ratings for Labour and Greens, and it would have soaked funding that Nationals support parties could have used for realising their social policy objectives. And more importantly because it's not based on any evidence. If there is on thing that the National Government has done is to force Government agencies into actually making evidence based policy and evidence based decisions. It's a weird thing, you would have though we (as a country) have been doing that for years, but we haven't. Even worse some of our parties "sell" policy options for votes, and don't care that it reinforces a particular hegemonic school of thought. And we get weird results from this lack of evidence based policy, teachers who don't believe dyslexia actually exists is one example.

And even if I was some crazy left\right wing eugenicist, they love the poor. It's the poor they give guns to and send of to kill other poor people.

I'll repeat what I actually said that you didn't bother to read.

If children are going to school hungry then the intervention needs to be at the family level so the whole family is healthy and productive.

jonathan18

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#1266602 24-Mar-2015 11:09

Glassboy: If there is on thing that the National Government has done is to force Government agencies into actually making evidence based policy and evidence based decisions. It's a weird thing, you would have though we (as a country) have been doing that for years, but we haven't. Even worse some of our parties "sell" policy options for votes, and don't care that it reinforces a particular hegemonic school of thought. And we get weird results from this lack of evidence based policy, teachers who don't believe dyslexia actually exists is one example.

A side-issue, maybe, but I needed to comment on the above.

I don't think it's a clear-cut as you make out, because as at the same time as all the talk of 'evidence-based policy' there has been a lot of concern raised regarding the move away from the provision of 'free and frank' advice from civil servants to their political masters. I worked in central government policy for a number of years so had experience of this first-hand. (I'm still in policy but thankfully now removed from this political front-end.)

Stories such as this are not uncommon: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11327317

I recall hearing (at least part) of this programme last year that cover the matter: http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/20140223

Many would argue that government departments now know to deliver what their Ministers expect; this level of self-censorship is in many ways as dangerous as active directives from those on high, as it has the same potential to lead to poor advice and therefore poor decision-making, and of course undermining the delivery of evidence-based policy.

Glassboy

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#1266640 24-Mar-2015 11:38

jonathan18:
Glassboy: If there is on thing that the National Government has done is to force Government agencies into actually making evidence based policy and evidence based decisions. It's a weird thing, you would have though we (as a country) have been doing that for years, but we haven't. Even worse some of our parties "sell" policy options for votes, and don't care that it reinforces a particular hegemonic school of thought. And we get weird results from this lack of evidence based policy, teachers who don't believe dyslexia actually exists is one example.

A side-issue, maybe, but I needed to comment on the above.

I don't think it's a clear-cut as you make out, because as at the same time as all the talk of 'evidence-based policy' there has been a lot of concern raised regarding the move away from the provision of 'free and frank' advice from civil servants to their political masters. I worked in central government policy for a number of years so had experience of this first-hand. (I'm still in policy but thankfully now removed from this political front-end.)

Stories such as this are not uncommon: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11327317

I recall hearing (at least part) of this programme last year that cover the matter: http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/20140223

Many would argue that government departments now know to deliver what their Ministers expect; this level of self-censorship is in many ways as dangerous as active directives from those on high, as it has the same potential to lead to poor advice and therefore poor decision-making, and of course undermining the delivery of evidence-based policy.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is, but if you are a policy analyst I'm not surprised :-) From my view - core not central - the free and frank advice was often based on opinions not any sound base. And it was not uncommon that the rest of the Ministry thought the big P policy staff were "deluded loons with no real marketable skills". So it was of really no surprise (IMHO) when the Government sent very clear message about the quality of the policy advice they expected. And that the message is continuing http://www.cio.co.nz/article/566605/bill-english-data-analytics-get-top-seat-government-table/ . Policy should be based in and on reality.

I also reject your assertion that stories like they one you quoted are common (I realise you obfuscated it in the negative). They're not, they're edge cases, and the Minister in question is gone, as he was not considered to be acting at the level he should have been.

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