Spread of Islam - Something to be concerned about or not ?

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MikeB4
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#1350567 23-Jul-2015 16:14

DizzyD:
MikeB4:

I see nothing wrong with peoples bringing and maintaining their cultural uniqueness to New Zealand, it enhances our society.

The problem with this statement is that you are assuming Islam is just a culture. Sure different cultures enhance our society. But Islam is not just a culture.

I love spicy food from the east BTW

Islam is not a religion or a culture. Its a way of life.
Understand that, and then you will understand that it can never function in its completed form here in NZ.

We are a country of 4.5 million.
If our geography supported it, and we had the resources, would you be willing to let government open the doors to 2 Million Islamists? Even 1 Million?

What would you say to your son/daughter if they told you that they were becoming Islam and were flying out to Iraq next week?

"Culture is the characteristics and knowledge of a particular group of people, defined by everything from language, religion, cuisine, social habits, music and arts."

As for a son living in Iraq that has happened already and in Afghanistan but back here.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

heylinb4nz

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#1350570 23-Jul-2015 16:15

bazzer:
heylinb4nz:
MikeB4:
Geektastic: To answer the OP's question as far as I can:

I have witnessed first hand the destruction of Britain by unfettered multiculti immigration.

Many cultures have quietly assimilated into British culture well - the stand out failure would be the Mohammedans. They persist in both visible differences (e.g. burqas and hijab) and invisible differences (e.g. causing almost all UK supermarket meat to be halal just in case and causing state schools to stop serving pork at lunch just in case).

I know many very nice muslims - and Citizen Khan on BBC tv is a comedy that shows they can laugh at themselves - but I would certainly exercise caution as there is a streak of madness there that seems pernicious and invidious when compared to most other religions.

You say "quietly assimilated into British culture well " so with that if British folk moved to Saudi Arabia for example the same would apply and that they quietly assimilate into Saudi culture . History has shown that it has not happened.

I see nothing wrong with peoples bringing and maintaining their cultural uniqueness to New Zealand, it enhances our society.

How would Sharia Law enhance our society ? Do you want your kids exposed to what the Quran teaches ?

Hell even the Muslims amongst themselves cant agree on what is true Islam (The Hadith, Sunnah, Quran), even killing each other over disagreement.

Lets hope the less oppressive version is the one they agree on.

It not like Catholics and Protestents arguing about faith which has virtually zero ramifications for NZ as a society.

Also (after you have tried to understand Islam) have a read of FIANZ objectives

http://www.fianz.co.nz/objectives

If that doesnt scare you as a New Zealander than you should leave NZ, becuase you obviously dont give a damn about your country.

I'm no muslim apologist, but what exactly do you take issue with on that page? Sounds like probably the objectives and targets of all religions or associations in general.

God where do I start. Lets lay it out, OBJECTIVES

To establish and maintain the highest standard of Islamic practice in accordance with the teachings of the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah.
Excluding the Hadith makes it less extreme, but still the Quran and Sunnah have plenty of things that have no place in a civilised society, also woman should be treated equally.
To undertake Daw'ah, education, welfare and other Islamic activities.
Bit vauge, is jihad considered an Islamic activity ? recruiting \ preparing people for Jihad ?, education of who ? teaching Children this stuff ?
To strengthen Islamic unity and assist in the development of the Muslim community of New Zealand.
Hmmm nothing about integrating with NZ, just forming a separate community
To establish and foster good relationship with Muslim countries and International Muslim organisations and institutions.
Good relations with countries like Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Somalia ? Organisations and institutions that exclude the Hadith ?
Promote and explain the message of Islam to the wider New Zealand community.
Seen very little of this, even our resident Geekzone Muslim is yet to offer any valid material to help us\me understand...I really do want to understand.

TARGETS

The implementation of educational programmes and facilities targeting three main groups across both sexes:
- Children & Young People.
- Adults
- New Muslims

Case and point, read the Quran, and Sunnah, and Hadith if you dare, and ask..would you be happy for Children and Young people to be exposed to this stuff ? do they have the mental capacity to understand it and not take it out of context...adults sure as hell do...and then there is the bits that cant be taken out of context.

DizzyD

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#1350579 23-Jul-2015 16:23

MikeB4:

"Culture is the characteristics and knowledge of a particular group of people, defined by everything from language, religion, cuisine, social habits, music and arts."

Islam is much more than just culture. Islam does not recognize any separation between religion and life. Islam also covers political and economic aspects of life.

MikeB4: As for a son living in Iraq that has happened already and in Afghanistan but back here.

Great stuff. I would love to hear more about that.
Did your son switch to Islam or go as part of the NZ army?

This one raises an interesting point actually. If NZ was sending troops to fight ISIS, would NZ islamic citizens be joining the fight?

bazzer

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#1350582 23-Jul-2015 16:28

heylinb4nz:
bazzer: I'm no muslim apologist, but what exactly do you take issue with on that page? Sounds like probably the objectives and targets of all religions or associations in general.

God where do I start. Lets lay it out, OBJECTIVES

To establish and maintain the highest standard of Islamic practice in accordance with the teachings of the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah.
Excluding the Hadith makes it less extreme, but still the Quran and Sunnah have plenty of things that have no place in a civilised society, also woman should be treated equally.

To undertake Daw'ah, education, welfare and other Islamic activities.
Bit vauge, is jihad considered an Islamic activity ? recruiting \ preparing people for Jihad ?, education of who ? teaching Children this stuff ?

To strengthen Islamic unity and assist in the development of the Muslim community of New Zealand.
Hmmm nothing about integrating with NZ, just forming a separate community

To establish and foster good relationship with Muslim countries and International Muslim organisations and institutions.
Good relations with countries like Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Somalia ? Organisations and institutions that exclude the Hadith ?

Promote and explain the message of Islam to the wider New Zealand community.
Seen very little of this, even our resident Geekzone Muslim is yet to offer any valid material to help us\me understand...I really do want to understand.

TARGETS

The implementation of educational programmes and facilities targeting three main groups across both sexes:

Children & Young People.
Adults
New Muslims

Case and point, read the Quran, and Sunnah, and Hadith if you dare, and ask..would you be happy for Children and Young people to be exposed to this stuff ? do they have the mental capacity to understand it and not take it out of context...adults sure as hell do...and then there is the bits that cant be taken out of context.

Or, you could try not twisting their words to suit your own agenda.

1) and 2) Basically, they want to live the life according to the beliefs. That's up to them, I wouldn't want to but they can, no worries.
3) Of course they want to foster a strong community here, I don't think that precludes the possibility of also integrating.
4) Ditto. I guess there are other countries with significant Muslim populations that are OK (in your eyes)? Indonesia? Pakistan? India?
5) I haven't seen this either, but then that's not really my bag. I've certainly seen this more from Christians of various flavours, and some are nicer about it than others.

As for the targets, they are targeting a few main groups across both sexes, sounds fair enough. It seems to me like they are targeting everyone other than elderly existing Muslims. Well I guess that's what you'd expect, isn't it? Do I agree with exposing kids to that? No more or less than I agree with exposing kids to any religion, but they all do that. All parents take their kids to their church (or equivalent) don't they? I don't think this says they are specifically targeting unaware children to try and indoctrinate them to their way of thinking. That's reading too much into it I think.

Basically, you seem like a hater, bro.

heylinb4nz

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#1350584 23-Jul-2015 16:32

bazzer:
heylinb4nz:
bazzer: I'm no muslim apologist, but what exactly do you take issue with on that page? Sounds like probably the objectives and targets of all religions or associations in general.

God where do I start. Lets lay it out, OBJECTIVES

To establish and maintain the highest standard of Islamic practice in accordance with the teachings of the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah.
Excluding the Hadith makes it less extreme, but still the Quran and Sunnah have plenty of things that have no place in a civilised society, also woman should be treated equally.

To undertake Daw'ah, education, welfare and other Islamic activities.
Bit vauge, is jihad considered an Islamic activity ? recruiting \ preparing people for Jihad ?, education of who ? teaching Children this stuff ?

To strengthen Islamic unity and assist in the development of the Muslim community of New Zealand.
Hmmm nothing about integrating with NZ, just forming a separate community

To establish and foster good relationship with Muslim countries and International Muslim organisations and institutions.
Good relations with countries like Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Somalia ? Organisations and institutions that exclude the Hadith ?

Promote and explain the message of Islam to the wider New Zealand community.
Seen very little of this, even our resident Geekzone Muslim is yet to offer any valid material to help us\me understand...I really do want to understand.

TARGETS

The implementation of educational programmes and facilities targeting three main groups across both sexes:

Children & Young People.
Adults
New Muslims

Case and point, read the Quran, and Sunnah, and Hadith if you dare, and ask..would you be happy for Children and Young people to be exposed to this stuff ? do they have the mental capacity to understand it and not take it out of context...adults sure as hell do...and then there is the bits that cant be taken out of context.

Or, you could try not twisting their words to suit your own agenda.

1) and 2) Basically, they want to live the life according to the beliefs. That's up to them, I wouldn't want to but they can, no worries.
3) Of course they want to foster a strong community here, I don't think that precludes the possibility of also integrating.
4) Ditto. I guess there are other countries with significant Muslim populations that are OK (in your eyes)? Indonesia? Pakistan? India?
5) I haven't seen this either, but then that's not really my bag. I've certainly seen this more from Christians of various flavours, and some are nicer about it than others.

As for the targets, they are targeting a few main groups across both sexes, sounds fair enough. It seems to me like they are targeting everyone other than old existing Muslims. Well I guess that's what you'd expect, isn't it? Do I agree with exposing kids to that? No more or less than I agree with exposing kids to any religion, but they all do that. All parents take their kids to their church (or equivalent) don't they? I don't think this says they are specifically targeting unaware children to try and indoctrinate them to their way of thinking. That's reading too much into it I think.

Basically, you seem like a hater, bro.

Yeah im most likely reading too much into it.

I dont hate, I just want to understand,

Most of the Pro-Islamic sites ie (https://www.islamswomen.com/marriage/wife_beating_in_islam.php)

Just seem to beat around the bush and don't offer clear answers...almost like they are trying to convolute things to hide the true meaning.

I would truely appreciate a good source of info from someone who is a follower of Islam, and can explain in direct terms (like the Anti people try to), not wafflings.

bazzer

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#1350585 23-Jul-2015 16:35

heylinb4nz: Yeah im most likely reading too much into it.

I dont hate, I just want to understand,

Most of the Pro-Islamic sites ie (https://www.islamswomen.com/marriage/wife_beating_in_islam.php)

Just seem to beat around the bush and don't offer clear answers...almost like they are trying to convolute things to hide the true meaning.

I would truely appreciate a good source of info from someone who is a follower of Islam, and can explain in direct terms (like the Anti people try to), not wafflings.

I guess that the pro-extremists probably use the same tactics as the anti-extremists do, but I'm not sure if they have websites or not.

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Rikkitic

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#1350587 23-Jul-2015 16:37

Instead of panicking about Islam taking over Britain or New Zealand, why not look at some countries where it has already 'taken over'? I would not want to live in Iraq or Afghanistan at the moment, especially not as a target westerner, but moderate Islamic countries I have spent time in, with much pleasure, include Morocco, Indonesia and Malaysia. If New Zealand were like any of those places, it would certainly be different, but not necessarily horrible.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

heylinb4nz

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#1350593 23-Jul-2015 16:42

Rikkitic: Instead of panicking about Islam taking over Britain or New Zealand, why not look at some countries where it has already 'taken over'? I would not want to live in Iraq or Afghanistan at the moment, especially not as a target westerner, but moderate Islamic countries I have spent time in, with much pleasure, include Morocco, Indonesia and Malaysia. If New Zealand were like any of those places, it would certainly be different, but not necessarily horrible.

Great food :)

Either way it wont be in my lifetime, but I am concerned as a parent where it may lead.

Different bothers me, having lived the Kiwi way of life for so long I couldn't imagine anything vastly different, in comparison that would constitute horrible. I think thats what makes NZ such a great place to live, the laid back kiwi lifestyle that many other cultures add to, but dont drastically try to change it, in fact they predominantly seek it (like the brits, south africans, indians, scots)

heylinb4nz

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#1350640 23-Jul-2015 18:18

Ive decided to contact FIANZ and see if there are any open days or protocols about visting my local mosque, thought it might be a good start to understanding it.

MikeB4

MikeB4
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#1350647 23-Jul-2015 18:50

heylinb4nz: Ive decided to contact FIANZ and see if there are any open days or protocols about visting my local mosque, thought it might be a good start to understanding it.

Remember to follow the protocols when you visit and kudos for doing this.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

nakedmolerat

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#1350666 23-Jul-2015 18:52

heylinb4nz: Ive decided to contact FIANZ and see if there are any open days or protocols about visting my local mosque, thought it might be a good start to understanding it.

Are you in Auckland? I can help you with this.

There is no protocols as such.

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heylinb4nz

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#1350670 23-Jul-2015 19:05

MikeB4:
heylinb4nz: Ive decided to contact FIANZ and see if there are any open days or protocols about visting my local mosque, thought it might be a good start to understanding it.

Remember to follow the protocols when you visit and kudos for doing this.

Life is to short to live in fear, may as well try to get the view on the ground rather than rely on internet or media speculation.

MikeB4

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#1350671 23-Jul-2015 19:05

nakedmolerat:
heylinb4nz: Ive decided to contact FIANZ and see if there are any open days or protocols about visting my local mosque, thought it might be a good start to understanding it.

Are you in Auckland? I can help you with this.

There is no protocols as such.

A gracious offer.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Rikkitic

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#1350705 23-Jul-2015 19:24

Please report on your experiences so others here can also benefit. I think this is a very positive thing.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

freitasm

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#1350706 23-Jul-2015 19:29

heylinb4nz: Also (after you have tried to understand Islam) have a read of FIANZ objectives

http://www.fianz.co.nz/objectives

If that doesnt scare you as a New Zealander than you should leave NZ, becuase you obviously dont give a damn about your country.

Nothing wrong with those objectives. No different than other established religions in this country.

And I think your idea of visiting a mosque is a welcome one.

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