BlueBourne - CGA Claim advice

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#1883343 14-Oct-2017 12:35

It will come back to the base issues.

What is the reasonable lifespan of a $1,000 product. For me personally, spending a grand on something I want more than 2 years. (I still use my Samsung S1 - but think that is now out of its reasonable lifetime)

Then its about as a consumer being able to make an informed choice and not being mislead. If a product has a known vulnerability I want to know about it before I buy. That way I can measure the risk relative to the price.

Knowing that, the vulnerability and any subsequent failure to operate isn't a defect. Not knowing that, if the product fails to work as advertised within its reasonable lifetime then a CGA claim should apply.

NZ, I think, is alone in the world with consumer protection like the CGA. It simply blows manufacturer warranties out of the water (which is why I have no sympathy for local retailers who bleat about Amazon, fail to mention the CGA and in the same breath try to sell 3 year extended warranties). If manufacturers want to supply into NZ then they need to be aware of this risk. If they accept it then they should be prepared to support the product through its reasonable lifecycle. If not the consequence is the retailer bears the risk when a CGA claim arises. Who knows how this might impact on the retailer / manufacturer relationship. Conceivablly we would have manufactures not supplying to NZ.

vyfster

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#1883362 14-Oct-2017 13:34

sbiddle:

Dratsab:

scuwp: If software and security updates are critical to someone then due diligence would lead them to an Apple product as the only manufacturer who consistently rolls out updates across all it's devices.

Google also do this with their Nexus phones and I have no doubt they will also do it with their Pixel phones.

Sony release security updates monthly for their devices as well - like Google however it's for a finite period. The Nexus phones have typically been supported for about 2 years which seems to be the norm for most Android manufacturers.

https://support.google.com/nexus/answer/4457705?hl=en#nexus_devices

What happens if you buy the device in month 23 of the manufacturer support cycle? You'll only get support for one month and then the device is no longer supported by the manufacturer because the product is end of life.

blakamin

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#1883400 14-Oct-2017 15:34

minimoke:

It will come back to the base issues.

What is the reasonable lifespan of a $1,000 product. For me personally, spending a grand on something I want more than 2 years.

So what is the lifespan of a $150k product? Should I go see BMW and ask for a new car coz the bluetooth in my 2005 X5 is no longer totally compatible with new phones?

blakamin

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#1883401 14-Oct-2017 15:38

vyfster:

What happens if you buy the device in month 23 of the manufacturer support cycle? You'll only get support for one month and then the device is no longer supported by the manufacturer because the product is end of life.

That's where it's up to you to do some research before you buy. Would you buy a 2015 car, even with 0 kms on it, today? You'd be mad, even with a full warranty, because the moment you drive it, it's a 2yo second hand vehicle.

If you bought a Z5 Premium today, you'd be nuts, because it's an old model. Not hard to research some things.

sbiddle

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#1883421 14-Oct-2017 15:56

minimoke:

It will come back to the base issues.

What is the reasonable lifespan of a $1,000 product. For me personally, spending a grand on something I want more than 2 years. (I still use my Samsung S1 - but think that is now out of its reasonable lifetime)

This has been a longstanding issue with the CGA and as mentioned above Consumer NZ pushed for mobile phone warranties to all be extended beyond the 1yr they used to be.

I deem this figure to be 2 years - which is now the standard warranty for a mobile phone sold in NZ by VF, Spark and 2d.

Does this mean the product will only last 2 years? No it doesn't. Does it mean that you can't lodge a CGA claim beyond 2 years? Not necessarily.

It does however give warranty cover to a point where it's deemed to be a fair lifespan for a modern phone.

minimoke

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#1883422 14-Oct-2017 16:01

blakamin:

So what is the lifespan of a $150k product? Should I go see BMW and ask for a new car coz the bluetooth in my 2005 X5 is no longer totally compatible with new phones?

So the blue tooth in your car still works and you chose to buy an incompatible product. CGA doesn't protect against rash decision making.

Samsung

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Dratsab

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#1883425 14-Oct-2017 16:04

vyfster:

sbiddle: Like the Tivo issue the reality is consumer electronics goods have a life.

100% agree. Nothing lasts forever. At least nothing built in the modern age. So what is the expected life of a premium / flagship phone?

That'd be a good question to put to Consumer NZ and maybe the Commerce Commission. Tell them your doing some research into a particular issue and let them know about this thread. Post the results - it'd be great for everyone here to be clear on this.

blakamin

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#1883429 14-Oct-2017 16:20

minimoke:

blakamin:

So what is the lifespan of a $150k product? Should I go see BMW and ask for a new car coz the bluetooth in my 2005 X5 is no longer totally compatible with new phones?

So the blue tooth in your car still works and you chose to buy an incompatible product. CGA doesn't protect against rash decision making.

Nope, 2 years later iphone came out. Things changed.

Like the OP... 2 years later, bluebourne came out.... The CGA doesn't protect against the FUTURE, but if $1000 protects you for more than 2 years, $150,000 should see me going for at least 75 years.

minimoke

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#1883438 14-Oct-2017 16:46

sbiddle:

.......I deem this figure to be 2 years - which is now the standard warranty for a mobile phone sold in NZ by VF, Spark and 2d.

Does this mean the product will only last 2 years? No it doesn't. Does it mean that you can't lodge a CGA claim beyond 2 years? Not necessarily.

It does however give warranty cover to a point where it's deemed to be a fair lifespan for a modern phone.

Consumer Electronics Association reckons something like 4.6 - 4.7 years (https://www.cta.tech/News/Blog/Articles/2014/September/The-Life-Expectancy-of-Electronics.aspx)

minimoke

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#1883440 14-Oct-2017 16:48

blakamin:

Like the OP... 2 years later, bluebourne came out.... The CGA doesn't protect against the FUTURE, but if $1000 protects you for more than 2 years, $150,000 should see me going for at least 75 years.

How long do you reckon a $1m house in Auckland should last then?

blakamin

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#1883450 14-Oct-2017 16:58

minimoke:

How long do you reckon a $1m house in Auckland should last then?

How long have buildings in the UK lasted?

But the tech in your $1m house will be useless... coz FUTURE again. (Not that any of that matter because your house isn't a "consumer" item like a car or a phone).

You can't CGA against the future. End Of Story.

It's like we're going around in circles again.

Fit for purpose on the day you bought it doesn't mean fit for purpose next year when tech changes.

I have a small full HD TV I bought 4 years ago.

Today it won't do full HD. It doesn't support MPEG-4.

I'm not going to cry to some consumer group over it though, because I understand that life does not stand still.

If you don't like that fact, buy a $200 phone, not the "cutting edge".

Problem solved.

Samsung

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ArcticSilver

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#1883476 14-Oct-2017 17:08

blakamin:

Like the OP... 2 years later, bluebourne came out.... The CGA doesn't protect against the FUTURE, but if $1000 protects you for more than 2 years, $150,000 should see me going for at least 75 years.

That doesn't follow, the CGA is about a reasonable lifetime for the device/service not based solely on cost. Generally speaking though, higher cost items get replaced less frequently and hence should be supported for longer.

The "reasonable" element will also cover reasonable wear and tear, meaning the supplier/builder should only be liable if the product has failed prematurely or had a fault.

ArcticSilver

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#1883478 14-Oct-2017 17:13

blakamin:

How long have buildings in the UK lasted?

But the tech in your $1m house will be useless... coz FUTURE again. (Not that any of that matter because your house isn't a "consumer" item like a car or a phone).

You can't CGA against the future. End Of Story.

It's like we're going around in circles again.

Fit for purpose on the day you bought it doesn't mean fit for purpose next year when tech changes.

I have a small full HD TV I bought 4 years ago.

Today it won't do full HD. It doesn't support MPEG-4.

I'm not going to cry to some consumer group over it though, because I understand that life does not stand still.

If you don't like that fact, buy a $200 phone, not the "cutting edge".

Problem solved.

You're comparing apples with oranges.

Bluetooth on this device has not changed. A flaw has been discovered.

To correct your analogy its like you purchased a $2000 TV less than 3 years ago and you can no longer plug it into the aerial because there was a fault with the socket. This may have only just been discovered nearly 3 years later, but it doesn't make it any less of a fault and should be fixed. Goods should last for a REASONABLE lifetime.

Jase2985

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#1883517 14-Oct-2017 17:50

^^^ you are describing a physical fault. Which blueborne isn't.
Apples and oranges

minimoke

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#1883519 14-Oct-2017 17:54

blakamin:

[

You can't CGA against the future. End Of Story.

Yes you can. The product has to be durable

...

blakamin:Fit for purpose on the day you bought it doesn't mean fit for purpose next year when tech changes. .

Fit for purpose last longer than day one.

A better example is if I buy a phone asking if it does Bluetooth Version 1 because thats is what my car has then the blue tooth should last a reasonable period. I cant complain if I later buy a car with Bluetooth V2 and it is incompatible with my phone - I should have asked the car dealer.

If I ask a phone seller if my phone comes with security updates and they say yes then I should expect these over the reasonable life of my phone. If the seller says Yes - but only to 31 December 2017 then I cant complain if there is no update on 1 Jan 2018.

And sure I could buy a $200 phone. I wouldn't expect much in the way of future proofing features for that kind of money. $1,000 Id expect a whole lot more - hopefully the advertised product and discussion with seller would meet those expectations

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