Awful events in Paris 2015-11-14

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#1428615 16-Nov-2015 09:01

Rikkitic: Stupid stupid stupid. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Say what you like. But if they were lining us up and shooting us one by one. And my kids were there too. I sure as hell would want to be armed, or have access to a gun. Its stupid stupid stupid to think guns cannot be used for self defense too. So go on. Have a laugh. But I'm pretty confident that if you found yourself in that situation you would be suddenly agreeing with me.

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#1428619 16-Nov-2015 09:03

BarTender: I think it's disappointing that no one yet has mentioned Beirut.

A similar number of people killed and injured. Yet the response from the mass media couldn't be more stark.

It's unfortunate that the media don't just call the people "crazy nutjobs committing mass shootings" rather than Islamic anything. Then perhaps we would also include in that the very high number of mass shootings happening in the US.

Trying to have some perspective.

I agree my earlier post also attempted to elicit perspective too i.e.

xlinknz:
DaveB: What will Europe look like in another 10 years time? I am so glad I chose NZ as the place to live for my family.

Indeed, the same to a lesser extent be said about NZ i.e. what will it be like in 10 years but obviously due to our geography and foreign policy nz is not as much at risk as other nations

As awful as what has occurred in Paris is spare a thought for the ~1200 under 5 children who die each day from malaria or the ~8000 children who die every day from hunger related causes both completely preventable

What I find interesting is that "terror" is clearly more news worthy in a western context than other terrible things that occur every day e.g. the child deaths I previously mention. Is it because was in a Western City ?, I didn't see TV schedules in NZ changed when the Russian Airliner came down in the Sinai or as you mention the bombings in Beirut both of which could have involved NZ'ers [but didn't] and had more fatalities

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#1428620 16-Nov-2015 09:04

DizzyD:
Rikkitic: Stupid stupid stupid. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Say what you like. But if they were lining us up and shooting us one by one. And my kids were there too. I sure as hell would want to be armed, or have access to a gun. Its stupid stupid stupid to think guns cannot be used for self defense too.

Unless trained you would empty your magazine and hit nothing or worse add to the death toll of innocents.
Retuning fire in harms way is very hard despite what you see in the movies or console games.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

DizzyD

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#1428623 16-Nov-2015 09:08

MikeB4:
DizzyD:
Rikkitic: Stupid stupid stupid. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Say what you like. But if they were lining us up and shooting us one by one. And my kids were there too. I sure as hell would want to be armed, or have access to a gun. Its stupid stupid stupid to think guns cannot be used for self defense too.

Unless trained you would empty your magazine and hit nothing or worse add to the death toll of innocents.
Retuning fire in harms way is very hard despite what you see in the movies or console games.

Oh please. Lots of assumptions. But the real question comes down to this.

Would you be better off or worse off if you had a gun? They were going to kill you, and your family. (You were trained how to use it)

People that are not fully trained generally don't carry guns btw. Of course its dangerous if you don't know what you doing. This is about people who are trained and know how to shoot. Are they better off or worse off in such a situation if they had the right to arm themselves?

How on earth can you add to the death toll if they lining people up and shooting them all one by one?

Geektastic

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#1428624 16-Nov-2015 09:11

DizzyD:
MikeB4:
BarTender: I think it's disappointing that no one yet has mentioned Beirut.

A similar number of people killed and injured. Yet the response from the mass media couldn't be more stark.

It's unfortunate that the media don't just call the people "crazy nutjobs committing mass shootings" rather than Islamic anything. Then perhaps we would also include in that the very high number of mass shootings happening in the US.

Trying to have some perspective.

There is a difference, Beirut is similar but the shootings in the US are criminal. Paris, Beirut, Kenya is War. All equally bad.

Paris has very strict gun control laws. Makes me wonder if these sorts of places are becoming a target. I somehow doubt we will ever be reading of such an incident in Texas.

I guess if I was living in Paris tight now I would be wishing I had the right to arm myself to protect myself and family from these "crazy nutjobs".

Suddenly I find myself agreeing with this guy: Paris 'Would've Been Different' if French Were Armed

"Nobody had guns. And they were just shooting them one by one, and then they broke in and had a big shootout and ultimately killed the terrorists.

"And I will tell you what -- you can say what you want, if they had guns, if our people had guns, if they were allowed to carry, it would have been a much, much different situation."

Back on the topic of refugees: In Canada they plan to settle 25000 Syrian refugees before end of the year! I wonder how many of those will be ISIS supporters? The Paris incident has proved that you just need one or two to slip through.

Given winter temperatures in much of Canada, I wonder how many Syrians will stay there long term!

Of course, as refugees, they should be temporary not permanent - something thats seems to have fallen by the wayside these days.

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#1428626 16-Nov-2015 09:16

MikeB4:
DizzyD:
Rikkitic: Stupid stupid stupid. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Say what you like. But if they were lining us up and shooting us one by one. And my kids were there too. I sure as hell would want to be armed, or have access to a gun. Its stupid stupid stupid to think guns cannot be used for self defense too.

Unless trained you would empty your magazine and hit nothing or worse add to the death toll of innocents.
Retuning fire in harms way is very hard despite what you see in the movies or console games.

I don't disagree that the stress of live combat will add a dimension of difficulty. Of course, you can train and training can be made part of any licence scheme.

To quote the late Col Jeff Cooper:

"One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that 'violence begets violence.' I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure — and in some cases I have — that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy."

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Fred99

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#1428627 16-Nov-2015 09:17

These terrorists were reported to be wearing TATP explosive vests. If you got close enough to hit them with a handgun, there's a very high probability that the vest would explode and kill you - or anybody else around.

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#1428628 16-Nov-2015 09:20

Calm down, John Matrix wannabes. Your "good people with guns would solve the problem" is not the solution and you know it.

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DizzyD

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#1428629 16-Nov-2015 09:21

Fred99: These terrorists were reported to be wearing TATP explosive vests. If you got close enough to hit them with a handgun, there's a very high probability that the vest would explode and kill you - or anybody else around.

More assumptions. "high probability" based on nothing really.

DizzyD

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#1428631 16-Nov-2015 09:25

Geektastic:

Given winter temperatures in much of Canada, I wonder how many Syrians will stay there long term!

Of course, as refugees, they should be temporary not permanent - something thats seems to have fallen by the wayside these days.

I agree with the temporary arrangement and also wonder why they are given permanent residence.

We should be helping out more with the war against ISIS. This way we help solve the problem for these refugees back home. Once that problem is sorted, they can return.

Fred99

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#1428634 16-Nov-2015 09:26

DizzyD:
Fred99: These terrorists were reported to be wearing TATP explosive vests. If you got close enough to hit them with a handgun, there's a very high probability that the vest would explode and kill you - or anybody else around.

More assumptions. "high probability" based on nothing really.

You don't know what TATP is, yet you're using an internet connected device.

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Rikkitic

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#1428637 16-Nov-2015 09:26

I wanted to remove myself from this discussion but it's hard not to respond to the gun craziness. There are already 'trained' people with guns in every city. They are called police and soldiers and that is what they are there for. I don't want some DIY gun nut 'protecting' me, thank you very much. The issue is not an exceptional, once-in-a-lifetime situation like people being lined up and executed. The issue is what the gun nut does the rest of the time while he is jumping at shadows. For people who think this is a good idea, just knowing they have a weapon changes their behaviour. I can't think of a better way to make a bad situation much worse. There was just a panic in Paris because some morons set off some firecrackers. I can just see some survivalist idiot whipping out a weapon in response and spraying the area with random return fire. Get real.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

sir1963

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#1428649 16-Nov-2015 09:44

DizzyD:
Rikkitic: Stupid stupid stupid. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Say what you like. But if they were lining us up and shooting us one by one. And my kids were there too. I sure as hell would want to be armed, or have access to a gun. Its stupid stupid stupid to think guns cannot be used for self defense too. So go on. Have a laugh. But I'm pretty confident that if you found yourself in that situation you would be suddenly agreeing with me.

Do you drive a car ?

If so you have zero credibility.
In gun happy USA, you are more than 4 times more likely to be killed in a car than be shot.
Also, you are more likely to be shot by someone you know (friend, work colleague,Family, neighbour,etc) than by a stranger.

So, if protecting yourself and your family is important, sell your car, they will be more than 4 times safer that way.

I am also of the belief that anyone that tightened and paranoid is precisely the kind who should NOT own a gun.

Terrorists are NOT afraid of dying, that is why the blew themselves up. Being armed would NOT have stopped the attacks.
Frightened people shooting at anyone holding a gun could have killed MORE people though.

DizzyD

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#1428656 16-Nov-2015 09:50

Rikkitic: I wanted to remove myself from this discussion but it's hard not to respond to the gun craziness. There are already 'trained' people with guns in every city. They are called police and soldiers and that is what they are there for. I don't want some DIY gun nut 'protecting' me, thank you very much. The issue is not an exceptional, once-in-a-lifetime situation like people being lined up and executed. The issue is what the gun nut does the rest of the time while he is jumping at shadows. For people who think this is a good idea, just knowing they have a weapon changes their behaviour. I can't think of a better way to make a bad situation much worse. There was just a panic in Paris because some morons set off some firecrackers. I can just see some survivalist idiot whipping out a weapon in response and spraying the area with random return fire. Get real.

I guess these situations have a habit of not happening more than once in ones lifetime.

Why are you assuming that people carrying a gun will be a "gun nut"? There are many rules/laws that can be put into place to stop this from happening. Gun licences need to be strictly enforced with appropriate training.

"Gun nuts" exist anyway, regardless of one's right to carry or not. This very thread is all about gun nuts. The bad ones! All I am saying is that it makes sense for the innocent to be armed too. I'm happy to have no right to be armed, just as long as all the bad guys are not armed too.

Fred99

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#1428660 16-Nov-2015 09:53

sir1963:

In gun happy USA, you are more than 4 times more likely to be killed in a car than be shot.

US deaths per 100,000 people:
Guns : 10.5 (includes suicide)
Automobile 10.3
(2013 stats).

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