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Topic # 150908 7-Aug-2014 11:44
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Just looking at stuff and the article (Stephen Dudley's father erupts at judge in court) about the death of the school kid during an assault.  The other kid who assaulted him has been discharged without conviction.  The thought process behind that is the judge stated she must ignore the fact he died due to the pre-existing, undiagnosed heart condition called cardiac sarcoidosis.

What this says to me is that the heart condition was the cause of his death, and that the assault just happened to be happening at the same time his cardiac arrythmia occurred.  I can understand that he was not going to be found guilty of manslaughter (although others have).  It sucks that any other kid hit probably would not have died, however the risk of hitting anyone is that they will die.  So when somebody does die from your senseless thuggery I think you should be convicted not discharged.

Its not the first case my eyebrows have raised to, the last being the Maori Kings son discharged without conviction for numerous offenses, not just a single silly mistake.  I have also seen other drink offenses discharged without conviction because the job they wanted wouldnt accept a conviction, so what!?

I just wonder if common sense isnt prevailing!

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  Reply # 1103952 7-Aug-2014 11:51
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i think the Judges comments sum it up quite well

 

Though the Crown opposed a discharge, Justice Winkelmann said it was "school yard violence... and we don't usually haul those boys before the court".​

 

The judge said they were "punches thrown in a school yard fight" and had Dudley not died it would have been dealt with by the school.






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  Reply # 1103954 7-Aug-2014 11:55
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the judge has to go by a process, and during the process, evidence.

whoever gave the judge the evidence that there is a probability the kid died from cardiac sarcoidosis is to blame.

- if the law requires a prove beyond doubt that cardiac sarcoidosis did not cause his death then you can't convict the kid
- if not, then i am guessing it relies on the probability of the heart condition causing his death versus the probability it didn't

also it then depends on the prosecutor - did they charge him for murder or assault or both.
if you only charge for murder and you can't convict they walk off without other charges

a sensible police once they find out from the autopsy should have added the charge of something like assault, and intent to grievous bodily harm and etc etc

anyone knows?

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  Reply # 1103958 7-Aug-2014 11:58
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It's also worth noting the kid had a heart condition and this contributed to his death. I am not condoning the violence, nor trying to minimize what must be a mind boggling loss for the parents, however I think there are factors that contributed which have led to this conclusion.

I am not for the record, stating I agree with the decision either. 



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  Reply # 1103960 7-Aug-2014 12:00
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vexxxboy: i think the Judges comments sum it up quite well

Though the Crown opposed a discharge, Justice Winkelmann said it was "school yard violence... and we don't usually haul those boys before the court".​ The judge said they were "punches thrown in a school yard fight" and had Dudley not died it would have been dealt with by the school.




I completely disagree. 

For a start, Dudley was not a participant in the fight and was attacked.  As reported Dudley never threw a punch. 

If this thug had not attacked him then Dudley would be alive today. Perhaps he may have even had his heart condition detected and lived a long life. 

But, this young thug took any chance of that away. 


Would you expect to be let off without any consequences if you went and bashed someone who subsequently died from an existing heart condition?   From your comments, maybe so?






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  Reply # 1103963 7-Aug-2014 12:05
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surfisup1000:
vexxxboy: i think the Judges comments sum it up quite well

Though the Crown opposed a discharge, Justice Winkelmann said it was "school yard violence... and we don't usually haul those boys before the court".​ The judge said they were "punches thrown in a school yard fight" and had Dudley not died it would have been dealt with by the school.




I completely disagree. 

For a start, Dudley was not a participant in the fight and was attacked.  As reported Dudley never threw a punch. 

If this thug had not attacked him then Dudley would be alive today. Perhaps he may have even had his heart condition detected and lived a long life. 

But, this young thug took any chance of that away. 


Would you expect to be let off without any consequences if you went and bashed someone who subsequently died from an existing heart condition?   From your comments, maybe so?







he could have gone out and played rugby the next day and died when someone tackled him , i still think if you take all the emotion out then the judge was right in her decision. 




Common sense is not as common as you think.


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  Reply # 1103974 7-Aug-2014 12:15
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surfisup1000: Would you expect to be let off without any consequences if you went and bashed someone who subsequently died from an existing heart condition?   From your comments, maybe so?



There are two issues here you are mixing together.

1: The Assault
2: The sentencing

The Sentencing
It is an incredibly sad case, but I agree with the Judge that the death should not be taken into account when considering sentencing.

Put it another way.  What if you were at a roundabout  not paying attention because you were changing the radio, and you accidentally had a nose-to-tail that was 100% your fault, and the person you hit died from a pre-existing heart condition set off by the shock of the collision?  Should you go to prison for manslaughter or was that death not really your fault?

The Assault
I do not agree with the Judge.  Assault is assault, and I agree thuggery should not be condoned.  If one person assaults another, that is a crime. There should be a conviction of some sort, but it should not take into account the fact the boy died (as sad as the case is).

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  Reply # 1103975 7-Aug-2014 12:18
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I never understood how much truth to the comment, once you become a parent you wear your heart on your sleeve for the rest of your life was, until I had kids of my own.

Every time I read a story like this and think about how I'd feel in the same situation I feel sick. 

Having said that, taking the emotion out of this case, it does have some extenuating circumstances and I also think that story is very short on actual facts. Judges jobs are often impossible.

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  Reply # 1103979 7-Aug-2014 12:23
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networkn: I never understood how much truth to the comment, once you become a parent you wear your heart on your sleeve for the rest of your life was, until I had kids of my own.

Every time I read a story like this and think about how I'd feel in the same situation I feel sick. 

Having said that, taking the emotion out of this case, it does have some extenuating circumstances and I also think that story is very short on actual facts. Judges jobs are often impossible.

Have you put yourself in the position of the attackers parents as well?




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  Reply # 1103980 7-Aug-2014 12:24
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itxtme:

I agree this raises some issues, but I think the bigger issue here is the level of violence tolerated in our schools. The older dude should have been trained to break up the fight, not go and contribute to it. This violence in schools is a problem that cannot be solved with police or judges.

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  Reply # 1103990 7-Aug-2014 12:35
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sxz:
There are two issues here you are mixing together.


Put it another way.  What if you were at a roundabout  not paying attention because you were changing the radio, and you accidentally had a nose-to-tail that was 100% your fault, and the person you hit died from a pre-existing heart condition set off by the shock of the collision?  Should you go to prison for manslaughter or was that death not really your fault?


Are you saying the thug accidentally gave dudley a beating? 

I don't get how your scenario relates, sorry.



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  Reply # 1103999 7-Aug-2014 12:51
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In cases like this i hate the current law system

Most people disagree with my views such as death penalty for murderers rapists child abuses etc and yet when expressed the support from the average block is quite surprisingly strong,

I feel like there is always no reason to assault someone unless it is in self defense and that if it happens outside of 'self defense' the law should always come down hard.

Even if this kid hadn't been assaulted and lived for only 3 days after is it fair that he didn't live those 3 extra days? Assault in any form in unnecessary and NZ has so laxed laws on it that i could quite happily walk down the street king hitting people without fear of much punishment. Our laws are old, to soft and don't cover whats needed.

I have had a good mate killed in a car accident at 3am because a 15, 14 and 13 year old decided to steal a car and drive it with no headlights at 180km/h in a 50km zone through 3 red light intersections before they annihilated my mates car and instantly killed him. Instead of stopping they drove off in another stolen car. They were found however were left off due to age... A life for no conviction? To me they should have had my friends punishment on themselves as well...




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  Reply # 1104011 7-Aug-2014 12:58
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Lyderies: In cases like this i hate the current law system

Most people disagree with my views such as death penalty for murderers rapists child abuses etc and yet when expressed the support from the average block is quite surprisingly strong,

I feel like there is always no reason to assault someone unless it is in self defense and that if it happens outside of 'self defense' the law should always come down hard.

Even if this kid hadn't been assaulted and lived for only 3 days after is it fair that he didn't live those 3 extra days? Assault in any form in unnecessary and NZ has so laxed laws on it that i could quite happily walk down the street king hitting people without fear of much punishment. Our laws are old, to soft and don't cover whats needed.

I have had a good mate killed in a car accident at 3am because a 15, 14 and 13 year old decided to steal a car and drive it with no headlights at 180km/h in a 50km zone through 3 red light intersections before they annihilated my mates car and instantly killed him. Instead of stopping they drove off in another stolen car. They were found however were left off due to age... A life for no conviction? To me they should have had my friends punishment on themselves as well...


I am sorry for the loss of your friend, but these two cases are not similar enough to be compared. Also is it your belief that these three kids should now be in prison for say 20 years, for this act?


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  Reply # 1104014 7-Aug-2014 13:01
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No, more like dead




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  Reply # 1104016 7-Aug-2014 13:03
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Lyderies: No, more like dead


You are advocating we put these three kids to death for their crime? A 13, 14 and 15 year old? Would you flick the switch if required?



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  Reply # 1104019 7-Aug-2014 13:06
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networkn:
Lyderies: No, more like dead


You are advocating we put these three kids to death for their crime? A 13, 14 and 15 year old? Would you flick the switch if required?




Unfortunately i can't say, its easy to say yes, but at the time to flick it would it? For taking a friend and someone i care about? Probably




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