Is chorus going to deliberately slow adsl internet down

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#1094803 24-Jul-2014 11:24

andrewNZ: Thanks Ray. That's a really good explanation.

However I still have concerns.
I'm already on a congested connection, so from what I see (assuming it applies to my location), some people can pay for a better connection, which WILL negativity affect the speeds of others at peak times.

This depends - I am not an expert as we are not chorus customers, but EUBA / BUBA dsl plans that the ISP's offer are only avaliable in certain areas.
So in some areas, an ISP may only be able to order a lower CIR dimensioned service.
The higher CIR's are pretty much avaliable if you are urban, or running off a newer cabinet.

But it is up to your ISP to order the service.
There are a large number of plans that the ISP can order, while still advertising to you a Full Speed / Full Speed PIR

I have shown you a very simplified diagram.

Yes it may be so that others can purchase a faster connection, if they find an ISP that is willing to order the higher priced service and sell it.
Most ISP's wont do this unless they need it to offer a voip or tv service over it though.

If you are in a badly congested area (like running off a conklin) then it probably wont affect you.
Chorus wont be able to offer the higher CIR service because the 12 ports on a conklin would exceed the 2mbit ATM backhaul if all end users ordered the 250kbits CIR

Personally, I see some basement dwelling accountant has stuck his hand up and said "we have found a potential problem, which could bite us in the bum in 5 years time, we better fix it now before we fail on delivery standards"

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#1094874 24-Jul-2014 12:07

Can't resist sorry...

I was reading this submission as part of the InternetNZ documents for the New UBA Variants. It clearly shows Chorus are unable to do what they propose, but please lets just leave the legal stosh to legal people.

What the Traffic Management Plan WILL mean is that currently those on uncongested backhauls and enjoy pretty much full line speed in the evening WILL end up having their AVERAGE evening speed reduce over time to no less than 250kbps. So while you may be able to watch a HD lolz cats video, or HD netflix etc currently given time you won't. Chorus want the ability to stop adding backhaul bandwidth for regulated users so people move to higher cost products which is in my oppinion unethical. It's like a well maintained road stops getting maintained causing pot holes and the like and the only alternative is a toll road.

Tim

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#1094915 24-Jul-2014 13:09

All these people arguing against EUBA dimension are forgetting one key thing - BUBA has always been artificially dimensioned. EUBA was going to be artificially dimensioned from day 1 but Chorus lacked the ability to do this. Had it not been for this, it would have had the same dimensioning as BUBA.

If BUBA is allowed by be dimensioned, why can't EUBA?

NZCrusader

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#1094941 24-Jul-2014 13:28

sbiddle: All these people arguing against EUBA dimension are forgetting one key thing - BUBA has always been artificially dimensioned. EUBA was going to be artificially dimensioned from day 1 but Chorus lacked the ability to do this. Had it not been for this, it would have had the same dimensioning as BUBA.

If BUBA is allowed by be dimensioned, why can't EUBA?

Because BUBA is already an unbearably slow service (even if not on a conklin).

There is no benefit in making another substandard service which does not keep up with bandwidth demands.

Its probably better not to replicate the failures of the past.

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#1094955 24-Jul-2014 13:35

NZCrusader:
sbiddle: All these people arguing against EUBA dimension are forgetting one key thing - BUBA has always been artificially dimensioned. EUBA was going to be artificially dimensioned from day 1 but Chorus lacked the ability to do this. Had it not been for this, it would have had the same dimensioning as BUBA.

If BUBA is allowed by be dimensioned, why can't EUBA?

Because BUBA is already an unbearably slow service (even if not on a conklin).

There is no benefit in making another substandard service which does not keep up with bandwidth demands.

Its probably better not to replicate the failures of the past.

That's not my point.

EUBA is simply a a functionally equivalent service delivered over Ethernet backhaul rather than ATM. If it's acceptable to dimension BUBA, and dimensioning on EUBA wasn't introduced because it wasn't technically possible (but now is) then why shouldn't Chorus be allowed to do it?

I'm not saying it's right for dimensioning to be introduced, but merely pointing out that arguments against it aren't as simple as some people are trying to point out.

Detruire

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#1094964 24-Jul-2014 13:44

sbiddle: All these people arguing against EUBA dimension are forgetting one key thing - BUBA has always been artificially dimensioned. EUBA was going to be artificially dimensioned from day 1 but Chorus lacked the ability to do this. Had it not been for this, it would have had the same dimensioning as BUBA.

If BUBA is allowed by be dimensioned, why can't EUBA?

I still remember the month leading up until we were switched to Slingshot LLU at an old flat: we were getting speeds in the 100-200 kbit/s range during the evening.

rm *

NZCrusader

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#1094995 24-Jul-2014 14:31

sbiddle:
NZCrusader:
sbiddle: All these people arguing against EUBA dimension are forgetting one key thing - BUBA has always been artificially dimensioned. EUBA was going to be artificially dimensioned from day 1 but Chorus lacked the ability to do this. Had it not been for this, it would have had the same dimensioning as BUBA.

If BUBA is allowed by be dimensioned, why can't EUBA?

Because BUBA is already an unbearably slow service (even if not on a conklin).

There is no benefit in making another substandard service which does not keep up with bandwidth demands.

Its probably better not to replicate the failures of the past.

That's not my point.

EUBA is simply a a functionally equivalent service delivered over Ethernet backhaul rather than ATM. If it's acceptable to dimension BUBA, and dimensioning on EUBA wasn't introduced because it wasn't technically possible (but now is) then why shouldn't Chorus be allowed to do it?

I'm not saying it's right for dimensioning to be introduced, but merely pointing out that arguments against it aren't as simple as some people are trying to point out.

Because Chorus are then inventing a premium product by hindering a regulated product.

This is quite a poor business practise.

Essentially Chorus are attempting to avoid accepting reduced line rental fees (which is more inline with the rest of the developing world). They would better spend their time inventing products and services which offer more than their current regulated offerings.

If I was Chorus, I would start by looking in areas of the market where current regulated offerings do not suffice or where higher speeds and more connectivity was needed.

Perhaps also there is something they can offer for the BUBA & EUBA services as a premium, but as long as it is not artificial as a result of degrading or limiting regulated offerings.

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#1094998 24-Jul-2014 14:35

Basicly Chorus has to do something so they can have enough money to fund their part of the UFB roll out as the ComCom is reducing their income streams. so basicly this new "Boost HD" product will be the same price as the current standard ADSL product. but it will be more expensive come december

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#1094999 24-Jul-2014 14:39

How could the ComCom not see this coming?

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NZCrusader

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#1095001 24-Jul-2014 14:45

l43a2: Basicly Chorus has to do something so they can have enough money to fund their part of the UFB roll out as the ComCom is reducing their income streams. so basicly this new "Boost HD" product will be the same price as the current standard ADSL product. but it will be more expensive come december

Chorus can afford the roll out.

They have been aware for a long time that these cost of telecommunications services would be decreased by the comcom.
Essentially they want to circumnavigate this, so they can have their cake (the UFB funding and revenue) and eat it too.

Sometimes the shareholders dont get a payout due to the business investing.

This should be one of those times (if Chorus is really stretched).

If they cant cope with the roll out, then they should not have bid for the UFB tender. Simple as that.

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#1095010 24-Jul-2014 15:04

NZCrusader:

Because Chorus are then inventing a premium product by hindering a regulated product.

This is quite a poor business practise.

They are delivering a premium product but I fail to see how they're hindering a regulated product when they're offering exactly as the regulated offering requires.

If The Commerce Commission had a brain they would have reviewed the UBA product several years ago and written new requirements that deliver a service that meets the needs of an internet user in 2014, not an internet user in 2004. They fact they haven't has meant they've basically invited Chorus to do exactly what they've done. Everybody saw this coming.

NonprayingMantis

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#1095019 24-Jul-2014 15:34

sbiddle:
NZCrusader:

Because Chorus are then inventing a premium product by hindering a regulated product.

This is quite a poor business practise.

They are delivering a premium product but I fail to see how they're hindering a regulated product when they're offering exactly as the regulated offering requires.

If The Commerce Commission had a brain they would have reviewed the UBA product several years ago and written new requirements that deliver a service that meets the needs of an internet user in 2014, not an internet user in 2004. They fact they haven't has meant they've basically invited Chorus to do exactly what they've done. Everybody saw this coming.

I suppose one part of the issue is that if Chorus have been performing well above the regulated minimum for some time, and keeping investment up to reasonable levels to ensure performance scaled with demand, the comcom saw no need to review that minimum. It would have been an expensive, time consuming process with no obvious benefit at the time. (now in hindsight we know different, but they may have been relying on the implicit threat of regulatory action to stop Chorus doing it, and therefore avoid the expense of the review themselves)

Of course now that Chorus are threatening to drop service levels (or more accurately, stop the investment required to continue to grow) the comcom could, and should, quickly review what an acceptable minimum level of performance should be, and push that through.

An amendment to the minimum from 32kbps up to, say, 2Mbps will give a few years breathing room (and since Chorus are promising 5Mbps on the new product, 2Mbps should be very easy for them to achieve).

MikeB4

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#1095021 24-Jul-2014 15:38

My brother in law (no I wont mention names) is heavily involved at Chorus, it is always enlightening and somewhat amusing talking to him and getting the real story. I will do that over the weekend actually should be good for a few hours amusement.

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#1095022 24-Jul-2014 15:38

NZTimbo: "It's like a well maintained road stops getting maintained causing pot holes and the like and the only alternative is a toll road."
Using that analogy: Chorus is required to keep the public road up to a minimum standard (32Kbs) and for years they have gone well above that standard for free. What they have announced is that they will continue to maintain the road above the standard (250Kbs), but less than they currently do.

NZCrusader: "Sometimes the shareholders don't get a payout due to the business investing."
Chorus have already announced they they have stopped paying a dividend.

SBiddle: "They are delivering a premium product but I fail to see how they're hindering a regulated product when they're offering exactly as the regulated offering requires."
Exactly!

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#1095024 24-Jul-2014 15:40

NonprayingMantis:

An amendment to the minimum from 32kbps up to, say, 2Mbps will give a few years breathing room (and since Chorus are promising 5Mbps on the new product, 2Mbps should be very easy for them to achieve).

It sure would - but the ComCom would first need to differentiate differentiation between BUBA and EUBA.

It would also have significant impact upstream - to meet those requirements some ISPs may need to increase backhaul, which may result in some hesitation to pass on any price cuts to UBA.

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