Broadband Service Demarcation Point (SDP) for FTTx and xDSL

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#374612 31-Aug-2010 00:08

Yeah it just sounds like an updated "full install" option for DSL to me.

Currently people signing up to ADSL with most ISP's can elect pay $199 to have Chorus tech (Downer, Transfield, Visionstream) come out and install the standard adsl/vdsl master splitter.

Hardly anyone does this since most people are cheap.

The SDP actually sounds like better value since apparently you get a mini cabinet and battery backup along with the filter device.

Correct me if I'm wrong but your main objection is the battery? As an alarm installer you ideally want to have one shared battery rather than a double up?

Well to me that seems like a pretty minor issue given the huge amount of people who don't have a monitored alarm and won't care to have one anytime soon.

The next question is:

Are they going to try and make installation of a master splitter or SDP mandatory for VDSL? If so good luck with that,

I'd expect the ISP will have to wear the cost and make the contract term for vdsl 24 month contract instead of 12 months.

I just can't see regular people going for an extra $199 up front.

richms

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#374626 31-Aug-2010 01:14

No reason the ISP cant offer finance on the installation for a small to medium fee.

IMO they should make the customer pay for an installation at the first wiring related fault callout if they are on a self install and have more than one jackpoint. Give them 2 options, go back to a single jack for free or pay for the install, with the option of finance over a year or whatever.

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#374671 31-Aug-2010 08:20

Cymro: Sorry, but I'm going to have to join Sbiddle on this one and step out, you keep going in a circle back to ridiculous statements (the 50% speed thing which has been clarified many many times in your many many threads on this subject) and refuse to acknowledge the difference between paying $200 for a Chorus tech in a van to come and fit a new cable from the ETP directly to a wall mounted SDP Vs. buying a $29 splitter from the shelf in DSE.

I'd suggest you actually get a look at an SDP or at least read the device spec, because you seem to be making a lot of assumptions and shouting them out on here as absolute truths, especially around the battery backup and need for power.
Bear in mind that discussions you may have had relating to FTTH trial area's and solutions may not be the same as the standard residential service Chorus are offering.

Cymro

CHORUS have stated that the SDP will improve internet speed by up to 50%.. what was ridiculous is the bad reporting about it being 50x times faster. When I ask CHORUS or Sbiddle to explain how this 50% increase is acheived I have yet to get a answer....thats why I am asking again and again and I will continue until the CHORUS statement is justified technically.

The issue is not about the difference between the CHORUS $200 plus SDP and a similar $29 device from DSE but how the future SERVICE DEMARCATION POINT (SDP) and how going to be assembled.

Yes I would love to get my hands on a CHORUS SDP and when I do, my comments will be posted here.

CHORUS will be installing a new cable from the ETP that has a Fibre placed next to the copper and that is a good thing but is not a major issue when dealing with the SDP layout and assembly issue.

cyril7

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#374673 31-Aug-2010 08:30

I too would like to know exactly how the SDP is supposed to fit into the current swing of things. How does it improve on a house that currently has say daisy chain wiring with a central filter fitted at the ETP and the 2nd pair of the daisy chain taking the direct line to a dedicated DSL socket somewhere in this house, which is the current end game in a majority of full DSL intalls, or alternatively a second dedicated run for the DSL line.

I presume the comments regarding the 50% speed improvement relate to the fact that in 99% of cases where a central filter is installed (either at the ETP or this new SDP) then house wiring improvements typically bring a speed increase of 50% or more.

AlarmNZ just a point, all the posts you have started here are of a soapbox nature and appear (maybe its just me) to be delivered in a very abrupt and shouting manner, something most of us around here dont appreciate, purhaps a little more gentle and polite approach would help, we are after all geeks here, not political types that thump our fists on the table till we get what we want. Also to help your profile, purhaps you could provide either a first name or suitable nondeplume that is a little less impersonal.

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Cyril

Cymro

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#374680 31-Aug-2010 08:45

Ragnor:
The next question is:

Are they going to try and make installation of a master splitter or SDP mandatory for VDSL? If so good luck with that,

I'd expect the ISP will have to wear the cost and make the contract term for vdsl 24 month contract instead of 12 months.

I just can't see regular people going for an extra $199 up front.

It's a good point, all the trials in NZ so far have pretty much come to the conclusion that VDSL2 service degrades much more quickly than ADSL when it hits house wiring, and existing splitters that may be installed won't work for VDSL2 (frequency range is higher).

I'd see a splitter/SDP install as being mandatory from the ISP's point of view, otherwise they will get endless fault calls about slow speeds and dropped connections.

Not sure what the answer is, because you also have to supply a new VDSL2 capable modem, and those ain't cheap (especially with a global shortage of Broadcom VDSL2 chips).

ALARMNZ

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#374707 31-Aug-2010 09:28

Ragnor

Yes it seems like an updated full xDSL install and yes the battery double up is indeed an issue so is pollution the energy waste. Without getting on cyrils soapbox here..but as a society we can't just keep adding electrical devices into homes without thinking about the impact to the environment.

FYI nearly a 100% of new and renovated homes are wired for some kind of Alarm and the local building standards call for battery backed up main supplied smoke detectors. Also local councils are drafting bylaws to prevent the installation of external siren sounders due to the noise aspect during false activations. Home owners are setting up their alarms to send TxT, email and /or video directly to their mobile phone. Each of these Alarm systems have a certain amount if auxiliary 12v battery power.

CHORUS wants to install another 12volt power supply and battery in every home, I know that?s an unnecessary waste. The whole issue of home power supplies needs to be addressed as consumers are often being told to install a cheap UPS or as in the case of CHORUS a SDP.is this good?......is this the way forward?

There will be a need for a home power supply and the CHORUS SDP form factor from what I know to be true is not the answer. What ever the answer is?. I am absolutely sure it will not come from CHORUS and as they now have laid their cards on the table and decided to become a power and battery supplier consumers are getting to wrong ecological message.

Some of you say "who cares" well I do care about waste and the thought of a million extra batteries hitting landfills every year and tonnes of carbon emissions due to powering additional 12volt chargers horrifies me.

If that means a bit of fist thumping and a few editorial exclamation marks well so be it.

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#374754 31-Aug-2010 10:54

I know I said I won't post here again but I will just point out one thing.

There is absolutely no technical reason why an alarm battery can't be used as a backup PSU for a SDP. If an alarm is fitted to the house then the phone cabing will be connected back to the alarm. 12V could easily be run over this to provide power for 12V and 5V devices from the SDP.

The biggest problem here is that alarms are 12V. 802.3af PoE is 48VDC. Instantly you're introducing inefficiencies having to convert it up.

webwat

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#374936 31-Aug-2010 15:26

Cymro: Copper + PSTN Voice - Copper powers the voice service, even if the power goes out

Copper + VOIP Voice service - Copper can't power the RGW which is enabling the VOIP, so requires a battery backup to power the voice service

Fibre + VOIP - Same as above, Fibre provides no power so requires battery backup to power the RGW and allow voice calls to places like 111 or Vector...

xDSL isn't the issue from a battery point of view, it's being able to guarantee that a voice call can be placed from the land-line when the power is out.

Is the SDP an "Active" device? I was under the impression that it's passive up to the point of a power outage, at which point the RGW attached to it can start drawing power from it?

You should also note that a FTTP installation may or may not provide a PSTN service, although it seems that Chorus have opted for ONTs that require a separate dinky Linksys ATA (which is equivalent to customer equipment). If POTS (phone line) was integrated at the ONT (along with video and Ethernet) then Telcos have no problem reserving and remotely monitoring dedicated power supply for the ONT, which can prioritise services during a power outage to maintain PSTN emergency service. Of course this Chorus rollout was just a trial but such an botched mixup of Telco premise equipment would make their CFH proposal seem fairly unrealistic. Linksys ATA phone outlets are not robust enough to expect users will rely on them in emergencies.

Telcos have always provided a 48VDC power supply over phone lines, and moving from balanced pair to GPON doesnt change the fact that some form of power is required at the premise to supply critical PSTN service. While "PSTN" (Public Switched Telephone Network) is defined by the Telecommunications Act and can include VoIP, POTS and TDM between network and the demarc, we often imagine it as a phone service guaranteed by a single Telco. The underlying media that phone service runs over is not the PSTN, so we are potentially talking about the WorldXchange PSTN as well as Telecom. In the FTTP scenario there could also be multiple services through one ONT, but the CFH has contractual 111 requirements despite alternative user services being possible, so the ONT owner must presumably provide battery backup PSTN outlet whether POTS or VoIP. The average ONT does not supply POE (Power Over Ethernet) for emergency VoIP service so Telecom should have chosen better ONTs. The telco who owns the ONT eventually contracts with the Fibre Co to maintain and guarantee 111 service over their own PSTN as far as I can see.

If battery backup is optional then customer contracts (and probably even advertising) would need to specify that alternative networks are required for emergency service. If a third party wanted to power to the ONT, then I doubt they would accept liability for outage guarantees, voltage regulation, surge/spike protection etc so that's not going to happen. If the customer wanted to power various distribution networks from the ONT supply, there would have to be a limit on power output to prevent critical PSTN service being compromised. Also, I cant see the point of that unless there needed to be more PSTN services that would eventually get abused by people trying to justify their hungry POE switch or RGW as a critical service — eventually such devices need their own power backups matched to their load and shouldn't be assumed to replace all phone lines. I would suggest both homes and business need at least one standard POTS phone somewhere that works during a VoIP outage/crash/powercut.

Ethernet and other data devices such as Residential Gateways don't provide PSTN service but do enable VoIP phones and computers etc to connect over house wiring on the customer side of the demarc. They are not phone services even if supplied by a Telco. I suspect Telecom's new device is something along the lines of G.hn devices that should soon be on the shelves for solving home wiring problems. Far better than fighting radio congestion and leaky microwaves with Wifi. Far cheaper than a full structured wiring retrofit. A bit much to expect it to power an ONT on the other side of the demarc.

Time to find a new industry!

richms

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#375040 31-Aug-2010 18:36

ALARMNZ:

CHORUS have stated that the SDP will improve internet speed by up to 50%.. what was ridiculous is the bad reporting about it being 50x times faster. When I ask CHORUS or Sbiddle to explain how this 50% increase is acheived I have yet to get a answer....thats why I am asking again and again and I will continue until the CHORUS statement is justified technically.

A full install will often deliver more than a 50% speed increse over substandard 3 wire internal wiring. The SDP is just the new full install option with a better filter for vdsl in it. Nothing strange about their claims.

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#375049 31-Aug-2010 19:17

richms:
A full install will often deliver more than a 50% speed increse over substandard 3 wire internal wiring. The SDP is just the new full install option with a better filter for vdsl in it. Nothing strange about their claims.

Richms

So what you are saying is the 50% increase is coming from a new cat5/6 class cable to be installed at the same time..... not actually the CHORUS SDP magic box. I was distinctly given another impression by this article

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/gadgets/4025300/Kiwi-device-to-make-broadband-50X-faster

Its says in the above article ......."connects with homes' existing wiring to boost broadband speeds "

I am sure they are correct about their claims but the way they are portraying it is either a clever white lie or a PR game, the truth will emerge soon and CHORUS can be judged then as a World leader in home wiring technology or corporate fools with too much shareholder money at their disposal. (place your bets here)

richms

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#375058 31-Aug-2010 19:45

It isolates the internal analog PSTN wiring from the DSL signal, same as a current filter does but gives nice sockets on it for people.

The installation of the box will mean that the rest of the cable nightmares are sorted out at the same time.

The box doesn't do that on its own, the installation of it does.

Why would chorus announce "we have a new box which does pretty much what an existing splitter does but looks nicer" when they can say things which make it sound more awesom?

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#375060 31-Aug-2010 19:53

Perhaps you wait to see the product before you jump to far down the throat, I don't seem to remember you making this much noise when pitiching your own product to power the full ONT and RGW with chorus, right now the replies are getting a bit obnoxious and starting to sound a bit like sour grapes, debate is great but IMHO the debate is going a bit over the top with calling everybody fools, white lies and PR stunts.

Chorus are bringing out a product they think will fill a hole, only time will tell if it will get an uptake and that will depend purely on if it is provides benefit and actually delivers an improvement in older wired premises.

For me the jury is out until I see it and How it will deploy in FTTH deployments, but I will make comments only after I have accessed it... Hopefully I will get the change

Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

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#375062 31-Aug-2010 19:56

Sbiddle

Yes POE voltage is quite high and that will limit its appeal mainly to switch rooms, that said it?s interesting is domestic PV systems are often 48V, however my feeling that low voltage 5 V to 14.8 V will prevail as most micro-controllers and consumer products like MP3, Phones, Laptops, routers , switches, modems, LED lights etc work in this range.

Also 12 volt batteries as mass produced and available everywhere and in a major civil emergency the home can be connected to a mobile generator ( CAR battery) and communication can be quickly re-established. Hunting around for a 48 Volt cell would be difficult.

webwat

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#375063 31-Aug-2010 20:04

The claims for the SDP do seem a bit mysterious and there isn't much enlightening info around.

Chorus website says: "The service delivery point would typically be located close to your main computer and includes an integrated splitter that will support ADSL and VDSL-based services. A version will also be available complete with back-up battery capability to maintain Ethernet-based services in the event of a power-cut."

That implies to me that has some functions of a distribution switch but not necessarily a home networking gateway, perhaps more of a media converter or just a VDSL2 modem? Otherwise, why suggest it should be located near the main computer? Begs the question of whos computer gets to be the "main" one.

I'm sure there are plenty of far better solutions that can be located close to the telecom entry point and overcome the house-wiring hurdles. Even 2Wire have some HPNA products, so that sounds like a flexible platform for home wiring although perhaps one of many alternatives.

Time to find a new industry!

ALARMNZ

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#375068 31-Aug-2010 20:25

maverick: Perhaps you wait to see the product before you jump to far down the throat, I don't seem to remember you making this much noise when pitiching your own product to power the full ONT and RGW with chorus, right now the replies are getting a bit obnoxious and starting to sound a bit like sour grapes, debate is great but IMHO the debate is going a bit over the top

Maverick

As you know we do not manufacture, the product we use is available from multiple vendors and it works on the principle of a single power supply and battery. Home automation, Alternative energy and Alarm Power supply manufacturers all over Australasia are better suited to deliver this battery solution.

I am not advocating for myself, just for some common sense and as a user/consumer. Yes I admit it I’m a bit obnoxious ( its all in jest

) I have nothing personally to gain from the activities of CHORUS either way and you must admit I have been consistent for years that two (2) power supplies and batteries is a mistake. Such colossal mistakes are only possible from large companies with big bank accounts and bad advice.

I understand the frustration that ISP’s are experiencing but I suspect this CHORUS device is not the answer and as soon as I get my hands on one I’ll be absolutely sure.

All new native broadband Alarm systems hitting the market include 1.5A auxiliary low voltage power for ONT, RGW and Switches. If CHORUS thinks it can dictate to new home developers and their customers to buy two (2) home power battery supplies then that’s a sad day for the environment.

Again sorry for calling them out ( CHORUS) but what they are doing is very very bad.

Please let me know when your unit arrives and if you trust me not to jump on it I can give it a once over. Perhaps its a fantastic groundbreaking peice of high technology lets see....

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