Broadband Service Demarcation Point (SDP) for FTTx and xDSL

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Master Geek
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#376990 5-Sep-2010 20:53

I think a jumble of wires would make it feel more roomely, hell why not drop a few biscuit crumbs and break a few chips.

But seriously, which ever provides the best coverage, arranging everything in some kind of fashion vs jumbling wires in any hole or nick on the wall. I think i'd take service over looks any day, and the cheapest installation.

Although, having them in a single box could make finding the problem alot easier, having connections to everything connected at a single location.

webwat

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#378677 10-Sep-2010 21:34

Kelem: Not seen alot of fibre reticutaled around a house - some, suppose it will come and the price will go up accordingly, i imagine Mr HO won't be paying 120c per metre for it.

Copper will always have its place on small LANs, because its so easy to work with and doesnt mind getting a bit dirty. Even multimode fibre cannot tolerate so much as a fiingerprint on the connector, and ceramic ferrules will wear out your sockets quickly (50 micron core requires precision, so best not to touch them too much) in a residential scenario. The trend in home LAN is for more copper, and some are specifying Cat6. Perhaps 80% of coax will eventually be replaced by Cat5/6 as well.

If you do contemplate home fibre, probably plastic optical is the future since its cheaper, less exacting, and more tolerant of normal use by newbies. The way to really future proof is to install empty ducts or pathways that can be used to add future services, probably not so cost effective since copper UTP is pretty ubiquitous. I would suggest allowing for additional devices though such as IPTVs, IP cameras, audio, and computers/phones at multiple locations in rooms, so that a TV can be on the opposite side of the room to the user.

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Time to find a new industry!

webwat

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#378693 10-Sep-2010 23:07

ALARMNZ: Who wants POTS anyway ? I mean really ....Skype, Messenger, Google talk etc the baby boomers are tech conscious and POTs is so so last century ( like hand crank in model T)

While Cat5/6 is a legacy Technology and we are stuck with it for now but things like "Light peak" will dominate and Ethernet, HDMI, Firewire (IEEE 1394) , USB will fade away.

see http://techresearch.intel.com/articles/None/1813.htm

But for now its Cat5/6 ......but lets achknowledge Fibre is the future and not a tempory gimmick so it should last a hundred years. ( or close to)

But then there is WiGig ....and I know Sbiddle hates me saying this... but there heaps of wireless capacity out there in NZ

see http://www.betanews.com/article/WiGig-publishes-7-Gbps-wireless-home-networking-spec/1273504044

Dont alarms use POTS sometimes? I'm sure its wanted by somebody... Anyway, its useful to have a POTS fallback when your router has troubles like mine. I have also been known to dialup at 56k to check email during ADSL outages.

The wireless spectrum available is not relevant, its the localised congestion (especially with 802.11n) and the overhead/security/packet-loss on 802.11x with the very small amount of free (ie shared general licence) that we use for local networking. There is also debate about spectrum hoarding of licenced bands such as 3.5GHz WiMax and the need for use-or-lose provisions in radio licences.

You made a mistake on your Light Peak reference, which is only a peripheral bus (equivalent to USB) compared to Ethernet, GPON and 10GPON which are actual networking standards.

Time to find a new industry!

nate

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#378711 11-Sep-2010 02:16

As per the FUG, personal attacks are not allowed. Let's keep this discussion on topic please.

ALARMNZ

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#378733 11-Sep-2010 08:57

webwat:

Dont alarms use POTS sometimes? I'm sure its wanted by somebody... Anyway, its useful to have a POTS fallback when your router has troubles like mine. I have also been known to dialup at 56k to check email during ADSL outages.

All Alarm systems in the future will be broadband, and legacy systems are fitted with (a) POTS-Ethernet media convertors or (b) dedicated GSM modules with the later being the most expensive option. VoIP or POTS line emulators for Alarms are 10%-99% reliable due a number of issues around the application of the slow speed modem format used which cannot be resolved for every existing installed Alarm system around the world so the industry has moved on to either (a) or (b) and are designing new systems without POTS. this forum topic is not about Alarms its about SDP service demarcation points.

webwat:

The wireless spectrum available is not relevant, its the localised congestion (especially with 802.11n) and the overhead/security/packet-loss on 802.11x with the very small amount of free (ie shared general licence) that we use for local networking. There is also debate about spectrum hoarding of licenced bands such as 3.5GHz WiMax and the need for use-or-lose provisions in radio licences..

OK now we are getting somewhere …..yes plenty of wifi frequency and yes “use or lose” is the name of the game. replace you Omni-directional antenna and you will be laughing.

webwat:

You made a mistake on your Light Peak reference, which is only a peripheral bus (equivalent to USB) compared to Ethernet, GPON and 10GPON which are actual networking standards.

My reference to light peak was for around the home not network handoff. Light peak demonstrates that the industry is thinking about fibre around the home and we need to consider this when designing the final SDP.

I have been so disappointed with the CHORUS SDP see http://www.geekzone.co.nz/sbiddle/7385 that I will reveal another SDP design in a few weeks that will provide a true comparison for which Sbiddle can comment on.

webwat

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#378811 11-Sep-2010 18:18

ALARMNZ:
webwat:

Dont alarms use POTS sometimes? I'm sure its wanted by somebody... Anyway, its useful to have a POTS fallback when your router has troubles like mine. I have also been known to dialup at 56k to check email during ADSL outages.

All Alarm systems in the future will be broadband, and legacy systems are fitted with (a) POTS-Ethernet media convertors or (b) dedicated GSM modules with the later being the most expensive option. VoIP or POTS line emulators for Alarms are 10%-99% reliable due a number of issues around the application of the slow speed modem format used which cannot be resolved for every existing installed Alarm system around the world so the industry has moved on to either (a) or (b) and are designing new systems without POTS. this forum topic is not about Alarms its about SDP service demarcation points.

webwat:

The wireless spectrum available is not relevant, its the localised congestion (especially with 802.11n) and the overhead/security/packet-loss on 802.11x with the very small amount of free (ie shared general licence) that we use for local networking. There is also debate about spectrum hoarding of licenced bands such as 3.5GHz WiMax and the need for use-or-lose provisions in radio licences..

OK now we are getting somewhere …..yes plenty of wifi frequency and yes “use or lose” is the name of the game. replace you Omni-directional antenna and you will be laughing.

webwat:

You made a mistake on your Light Peak reference, which is only a peripheral bus (equivalent to USB) compared to Ethernet, GPON and 10GPON which are actual networking standards.

My reference to light peak was for around the home not network handoff. Light peak demonstrates that the industry is thinking about fibre around the home and we need to consider this when designing the final SDP.

I have been so disappointed with the CHORUS SDP see http://www.geekzone.co.nz/sbiddle/7385 that I will reveal another SDP design in a few weeks that will provide a true comparison for which Sbiddle can comment on.

Around the home is a network, generally called a home network using ethernet. Glass fibre is not useful in applications that need to be unplugged frequently or exposed to a less than prestine environment such as a home where fibre tolerances do not allow for specs of dust or finger marks on the optics. Plastic Optical Fibre has a larger core but not much practical use for end-user devices. It may never gain enough momentum to replace Cat6 in home networks. Wifi will always have too many limitations to completely replace wired networking so we are back to the issue that its far cheaper to install extra cable from the beginning than adding cable later.

If you think 1 cable is enough for foreseeable needs then you probably also think 640k will always be more memory than any user will ever need.

Time to find a new industry!

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#378816 11-Sep-2010 18:44

Does AlarmNZ alarms use fiber optics to connect their window/door/motion detectors?

If not, why not? Could it be that good old copper cable delivers more than enough bandwidth for todays and tomorrows detectors (a bit like CAT5/CAT6)?

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webwat

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#378852 11-Sep-2010 21:25

cokemaster: Does AlarmNZ alarms use fiber optics to connect their window/door/motion detectors?

If not, why not? Could it be that good old copper cable delivers more than enough bandwidth for todays and tomorrows detectors (a bit like CAT5/CAT6)?

I think AlarmNZ have found a way to use fibre for powering IP cameras.... probably with a power cable.

Time to find a new industry!

cyril7

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#378873 11-Sep-2010 22:31

Kenny Everret used to say his show was powered by the group Hot Gossip rubbing thighs in the basement, maybe thats how its done. :)

Cyril

ALARMNZ

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#378906 12-Sep-2010 01:24

Webwat / Cyril7

Overseas the security industry has been using fibre as a detection method for nearly 20 years , however its not economic or practical in a domestic setting. Most Fire systems use 2 core TPS and security systems traditionally have used untwisted 4/6 core however most installers are using Cat5/6 these days because its cheap and plentiful.

If you are suggesting the average home should use Fibre for internal alarm signalling then you should know most sensors mostly use mechanical switching and do not require such bandwidth. Cameras are a little different they could benefit from the bandwidth that fibre offers, however because very few homes have camera systems installed, its simply not worth discussing much further.

Fibre is best for media that why I would suggest its pre-wired to home entertainment areas as a future proofing exercise if you can afford it.

Fire and security wiring may come to the SDP but will terminate into seperate screw terminals not a 110 block, because these points are often shared and have multiple cables attached at the same location.

ALARMNZ

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#381367 17-Sep-2010 17:37

Since details of the CHORUS SDP have emerged from the SBiddles article http://www.geekzone.co.nz/sbiddle/7385 we are a little wiser about the CHORUS plans.

Firstly please look closely at the schematic diagram in Steves article https://cdn.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs/bloga04e5dfafe3d320a082146d904ee68ef.jpg Does it really paint a clear picture ? for instance the statement at the top of the diagram has me really wondering what's going on ?? it says on the last line..

"There is the option of connecting 2 other Ethernet outlets via the SDP (Zone 2 and Zone 3)"

And if that's not enough? what's with the Laptop plugged into the back of the CHORUS SDP ?? ( actually looks like its hardwired in)

Then of course there is the issue of burglars disconnecting the ?link? to disable the ALARM and since the SDP is not in a locked box this configuration will not be embraced very well by insurers etc.

Then there is this most puzzling ADSL Modem Gateway Device is it me does the idea of a ATA on a ADSL modem/router look a bit weird ?? I know you can get them but surely that would be a better idea with VDSL.

Actually the more I look at the CHORUS SDP device the more I think its "stupid" ( Am I allowed to say that ?..perhaps not must get my lawyer to read the FUG)

To be fair CHORUS is trying to deal with a problem but really they have lost their mojo on this one, anyway boys give me a call you know my number

Sbiddle and others can now take pots shots at me because below in my opinion on a design and while the image is slightly blurry you can see the general idea and within a very short while I will direct readers to the NZ supplier. BTW its not me I am just a VISP guy.

Here it is https://cdn.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs/blog5f31a6a4b87a207b209a5b24a4c6763c.jpg

I'll post the VoIP version later but I think most can work out where to patch that in for now.

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cyril7

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#381371 17-Sep-2010 17:42

As the designer of the ST2206 which is sold by Signet I also think the SDP is a load of crock, not because I prefer my device but I simply dont see how it advances anything over having a hardwired filter and dedicated DSL port fitted to your house.

As for new houses then again the SDP has no point as some level of structured/star cabling (even if it be 4or 5 star wired cat5 runs back to a faceplate in a a wardrobe) would be, should be in place that again leaves no purpose for this SDP.

Cyril

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#381422 17-Sep-2010 20:11

cyril7:
As for new houses then again the SDP has no point as some level of structured/star cabling (even if it be 4or 5 star wired cat5 runs back to a faceplate in a a wardrobe) would be, should be in place that again leaves no purpose for this SDP.

Cyril

The SDP is certainly not aimed at any houses with modern structured solutions. Your device fits this bill nicely!

richms

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#381445 17-Sep-2010 21:41

I dont like how they are proposing to put it half way down the internal wiring by joining the second pair thru the unused outlets, kinda defeats the purpose of something that can disconnect the internal wiring when it uses it.

Richard rich.ms

webwat

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#381478 17-Sep-2010 23:25

I agree, not a good idea to splice lots of spare wires from a daisy-chained cable. Line input goes directly to an RJ45 jack instead of a punchdown block, so why not also have the alarm grabber on a RJ45 or RJ31X using the same plug. Eventually the alarm and modem will probably be in different places for homes not designed with a central comms cabinet, so some places still need a new cable installed.

As AlarmNZ said, its basically a filter and patch panel in a box. It should be located in a secure spot if linked to an alarm grabber, and I think would make more sense if advertised as a lockable box designed with modem space inside and points for hardwiring into phone lines.

Time to find a new industry!

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