Help Me Build my next Rig

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gcorgnet

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#228544 11-Jan-2018 07:53

Hey guys,

I am investigating my next Desktop Upgrade. I am not a gamer but spend a lot of time on Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop (less so Adobe Premiere but a little bit).

From what I gather Lightroom doesn't use the GPU much but needs raw CPU power with clock speed being more important for normal real time operations (switching images, applying editing, etc..) and # of Core being important for generating previews and exporting images.

I seem to be set on a 7700K as it only has 4 cores and therefore a higher clock speed than the 8700K (6 cores). I intend to OC that CPU as much as I can while retaining decent stability.

My current Desktop Case is mATX format but could be open to getting a new one if I end up with a better Mobo option.

I don't necessarily need a new GPU as I have an OK one and don't really game but I am after a good Motherboard (needs Z270 chipset for OC, as I understand it) that is preferably mATX. Support for m.2 SSD would be a plus for future upgradeability. For Ram, I would want at least 16GB of DDR4, around the 3200Mhz speed.

Then comes CPU cooling: I don't know much about what I will need to ensure decent OverClocking. I see there are liquid cooling CPU coolers but having never used one, I don't know what to look for.

Budget: trying to keep it $1200-$1500 which I think is realistic seeing as I really only need CPU+Mobo+Ram+Cooler

Could anybody share opinions on these?

Thanks a lot,

Guillaume

lokhor

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#1936018 11-Jan-2018 09:35

Have you looked at the AMD Ryzen CPUs? they are really great value for performance.

All comments are my own opinion, and not that of my employer unless explicitly stated.

vexxxboy

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#1936021 11-Jan-2018 09:40

it seems, from all benchmarks, that the intels are better for single task duties ie gaming, and the Ryzens are much better on multi tasking.

Common sense is not as common as you think.

lokhor

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#1936024 11-Jan-2018 09:45

vexxxboy:

it seems, from all benchmarks, that the intels are better for single task duties ie gaming, and the Ryzens are much better on multi tasking.

Yep, Ryzen are still good at gaming, just not quite as good. For OP's purposes I would say Ryzen is probably a better value proposition.

All comments are my own opinion, and not that of my employer unless explicitly stated.

gcorgnet

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#1936031 11-Jan-2018 09:50

Most of the research I have done seems to indicate that the 7700K would have the edge over a Ryzen Proc. Although not totally out of the question, I would probably prefer an intel proc

eg: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4186083

TLD

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#1937308 11-Jan-2018 17:32

lokhor:

Have you looked at the AMD Ryzen CPUs? they are really great value for performance.

Didn't I see that they are reducing the price? Yep, here you are:

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-lowers-prices-ryzen-threadripper,36268.html

Wow that makes them _seriously_ competitive.

Trevor Dennis
Rapaura (near Blenheim)

TLD

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#1937309 11-Jan-2018 17:55

Guillaume, Puget Systems is the go to place for information on content creation hardware. They test all the usual suspects on all the software most people use in that field, which is useful as what works for one app, does not always work for another. Photoshop and Lightroom are lightly threaded, so clock speed is all important. We have been advising the 8700K for Photoshop, After Effects and Lightroom on the Premiere Pro Hardware forum, but with the proviso that it only has 16 PCIe lanes, so you need to look carefully at your storage requirements. That means reading reviews, or downloading motherboard manuals, to see what trade-offs are made between M.2, SATA, GPU etc.

Have a look through yourself. It's great reading.

https://www.pugetsystems.com/all_articles.php

The Ryzen 7 1800X has 24 PCIe lanes, and two more cores than the 8700K, but has a much lower clock speed, so it is roundabouts and swings. Note, I don't use Lightroom, so I am not the best person to pick a relevant benchmark.

This one probably has the CPU contenders, and meaningful (i.e. relevant) benchmarks, but look through for yourself

FWIIW, I am an Adobe Community Professional, and get full CC and Lynda.com subscriptions free of charge. I am also a moderator on the Adobe forums. The two forums I use are Photoshop and the PremPro Hardware, (plus The Lounge which is a non technical free for all)

Trevor Dennis
Rapaura (near Blenheim)

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#1937312 11-Jan-2018 18:08

Sorry to answer in dribs and dabs, but I have seen some more content.

I think that in all likely hood, you'd get away with a big air cooler like the Noctua D14/15 for the 8700K or Ryzen 7, and they trend to be a bit quieter. They are huge though, and you'd need to be sure it would fit in your case, and clear your GPU and case side cover.

Going off at a tangent here, but is Guillaume a Dutch name? I know Guillaume Stordeur who is the man behind Lazy Nezumi Pro, and he is Dutch (I think). Guillaume took a bit of a hit with CC2018 which introduced brush smoothing. He was also a tiny bit put out that Adobe used exactly the same terminology like Pulled String and Catch-Up as LNP, but did not give him any advanced warning. I am on the pre-release program, and was bursting to warn him, but the NDAs are pain of death so couldn't risk it. The same thing happened to Derrick Barth with his Brushbox plug-in, which has been made irrelevant by CC2018. It's brush smoothing is quite good, but there is soooooo much added value with LNP, that it is still worth the $35 or whatever it costs.

https://lazynezumi.com/

Trevor Dennis
Rapaura (near Blenheim)

gcorgnet

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#1937483 12-Jan-2018 07:58

Thanks for your replies. Guillaume is French, in my case. (French equivalent of William, so I am told)

Looks like the 8700K might even be a better option for me as offering roughly a 10% improvement on both lightroom and Photoshop over the 7700K and is of the latest generation so probably a better buy (just need to check the pricing)

Anyone cares to weigh in on cooling requirements if I want to OC these?

Batman

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#1937485 12-Jan-2018 08:04

Just wondering re GPU - the Pascals and the AMD can't remember what it's calleds are 2 years old. Any new GPUs to be released anytime soon surely?

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#1937492 12-Jan-2018 08:18

gcorgnet:

Anyone cares to weigh in on cooling requirements if I want to OC these?

I would check the ranked lists for Air and Liquid coolers on Frosty Tech and make a choice from here based on what criteria are most important to you (performance/noise/price etc)

http://www.frostytech.com/top5heatsinks.cfm

http://www.frostytech.com/top5_liquid_heatsinks.cfm

Certainly worth considering a self-contained liquid cooler like the Nepton range as they seem to provide the best overall cooling outside of a complex, case-integrated water cooling system...

That said, I have run a Thermaltake FRIO (no.8 in their list) for years across SandyBridge and Haswell and it has always done what I have asked of it with headroom on the fan speed to spare, so...

As far as stable, effective and cool Overclocking is concerned, it is equal parts knowledge, components, perserverence, cooling/air flow setup and luck IME! You may win the CPU lottery or you may end up with a chip that never quite hits the heights you would like...

I have actually decided after recent testing that the OC I had running on my system (2133 RAM and 4.7Ghz on a 4790k CPU) actually made minimal real-world difference for me (mostly gaming) compared to the revalation which was getting a high-quality G-Sync monitor, so I have returned my system to stock and dropped the fan speeds all round.

You may also find that the OC rabbithole is a compelling one, but one where the efforts and frustrations out-weigh the benefits!

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#1937493 12-Jan-2018 08:22

Batman:

Just wondering re GPU - the Pascals and the AMD can't remember what it's calleds are 2 years old. Any new GPUs to be released anytime soon surely?

The new NVIDIA "Volta" based cards for consumer gaming are likely to be seen Q1/Q2 this year based on the fact that the commercially-targeted Titan was recently released.

Not sure it has been officially confirmed though

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#1937514 12-Jan-2018 08:58

Item:

gcorgnet:

Anyone cares to weigh in on cooling requirements if I want to OC these?

I would check the ranked lists for Air and Liquid coolers on Frosty Tech and make a choice from here based on what criteria are most important to you (performance/noise/price etc)

http://www.frostytech.com/top5heatsinks.cfm

http://www.frostytech.com/top5_liquid_heatsinks.cfm

Certainly worth considering a self-contained liquid cooler like the Nepton range as they seem to provide the best overall cooling outside of a complex, case-integrated water cooling system...

That said, I have run a Thermaltake FRIO (no.8 in their list) for years across SandyBridge and Haswell and it has always done what I have asked of it with headroom on the fan speed to spare, so...

As far as stable, effective and cool Overclocking is concerned, it is equal parts knowledge, components, perserverence, cooling/air flow setup and luck IME! You may win the CPU lottery or you may end up with a chip that never quite hits the heights you would like...

I have actually decided after recent testing that the OC I had running on my system (2133 RAM and 4.7Ghz on a 4790k CPU) actually made minimal real-world difference for me (mostly gaming) compared to the revalation which was getting a high-quality G-Sync monitor, so I have returned my system to stock and dropped the fan speeds all round.

You may also find that the OC rabbithole is a compelling one, but one where the efforts and frustrations out-weigh the benefits!

I run a noctua D15 or something like that - i ran out of voltage without running out of temp headroom at all

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#1937555 12-Jan-2018 10:01

I'll second the D15 if you case is big enough. Toms is suggesting 4.8Ghz on all cores is doable with a good air cooler on the 8700K, and air coolers don't come much better than the Noctua D15. It is pretty quiet as well.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-coffee-lake-i7-8700k-cpu,5252-12.html

I am not sure about Volta. The NVIDEA 10**** series cards have been around for ages now. I am bumping the GTX970 from my old build (and putting the original GTX570 in the old build for my wife) for my 7900X build, the idea being to get a next series NVIDIA card later this year. Puget Systems have had a Titan V (Volta) card for several weeks now, and have been running comparison tests with it. Yes, it is showing a 50% to 100% improvement over a GTX1080 but you are looking at US$3000 for the Titan V, as opposed to US$700 for the GTX1080

The Titan Xp, on the other hand, is only US$1200, and on a bang for buck basis, is better value than the OTT Volta card.

https://www.pugetsystems.com/blog/2017/12/12/A-quick-look-at-Titan-V-rendering-performance-1083/

Personally, I can see me hanging on to my GTX970 for longer than I originally anticipated. Photoshop and Lightroom make less use of the GPU than Premiere Pro, plus they are lightly threaded. If you use Premiere Pro, then you probably use Handbrake, and that would definitely make good use of the GPU (and all the cores you can throw at it). I mentioned the Premiere Pro Hardware forum back up the thread, and a tool a lot of us use is the PPBM made by forum stalwarts Bill Gehrke and the sadly deceased, Harm Millaard. There is some stand out info there, but some of it will be outdated. For instance, NVMe drives have completely changed the fast storage dynamic that used to need fast raid arrays with multiple 4K tracks. I can see that Bill has updated that aspect of the build advice listing M.2 drives that were not available when Harm died.

But getting to the point, the PPBM test compares with and without GPU assistance, and that difference is considerable. Unfortunately, Bill, and obviously not Harm, do not update the result table nowadays, but there is table for PPBM5 (the last link below). Look at the MPE (Mercury Processing Engine) off/on/gain columns. The difference is startling, and in those days, GTX680 was the pinnacle of GPU performance.

http://ppbm6.com/

http://ppbm7.com/

http://ppbm5.com/DB-PPBM5-2.php

I am proud that my 3930K (running at 4.4Ghz) will forever be in 17th place out of 1300 entries on that list. I also never get tired of pointing out that the highest placed Mac system is way down at 661st place.

I apologize for the long waffling post, and I hope you can work something out from it.

Good luck

Trevor Dennis
Rapaura (near Blenheim)