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nic.wise

196 posts

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#154870 11-Nov-2014 10:02
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Hi

We are building a small (<10sqm) office in the garden. It'll have power (underground) and network to connect it back to the house (where the VDSL is). It's about 30m from the edge of the house to the edge of the office, and we are going to have to bury the power line - and the network I guess.

I was thinking about the ways to wire it up.

Ethernet - CAT6? 7? - seams like the obvious one, but the cable would need to be laid WITH the power cable (which is basically a long extension cable with some outdoor ruggedness added, and inside a conduit). But... ethernet and power don't mix well, not when they are run next to each other, right? Would shielded ethernet fix this? 

The other idea I had was to run fiber in the trench, and put a converter on each end. All the converters I can find are only 100Mbps, tho, and I'd prefer Gigabit as thats what the rest of the house uses. Is this normal, or did I miss something in my google search?

Putting two tubes in the trench is a possibility, but I'd prefer to just put one in. 

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Nic






Nic Wise - Waiheke Island, New Zealand - www.fastchicken.co.nz


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deadlyllama
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  #1172676 11-Nov-2014 10:37
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Just running an extension cable in a conduit is probably against the regulations -- is this a DIY jobbie?  Running your data cable right beside your power cable is also against the regulations.  I think they need to be 30cm apart, which is why there are two parallel bits of conduit going underground to my garage.

ubergeeknz
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Vocus

  #1172679 11-Nov-2014 10:42
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The right way is with fibre.  You'll be wanting sfp modules at each end in a switch/router.  Check out mikrotik gear for something cheap that'll do the trick.

2 of these: http://www.gowifi.co.nz/coming-soon-new-products/mikrotik-sfp-module-1.25g-mm-550m-850nm-s-85dlc05d.html?keyword=SFP+module
a
nd 2 of these: http://www.gowifi.co.nz/switches/mikrotik-rb260gs-5-port-gigabit-managed-switch-sfp-fibre-port.html?keyword=SFP+module

y
ou'll be set :)

Good thing is, no reason not to run it right next to the power as it won't interfere.

Or to do it cheap, just run ethernet cable underground in a conduit.

 
 
 
 


deadlyllama
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  #1172681 11-Nov-2014 10:46
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Are you optimising for
* cost?
* regulatory compliance?
* time taken to install?
* simplicity (aka how hard will this be to fix if it breaks, will I need to wait for spares in the mail, etc)?

nic.wise

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  #1172700 11-Nov-2014 11:02
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Thanks everyone.

@deadlyllama: yes, it's going to be professionally done, so it'll all be to code. Needless to say I'm not a sparky :) But it'll also be fairly low load, not three phase etc.

Sounds like Fibre is the way to go. Digging a 40cm wide trench might not be worth it. (it's being dig by machine, too, not by hand)

Optimising for:

Chance of it breaking and having to be re-cabled in the future
Compliance!
Time? Not really, assuming I can do it within a day or so.
Simplicity: yes, but mostly of the underground bits, not the bits on the end. If the fiber->ethernet bit breaks, and it takes a week to get a new one, thats not a huge deal. (tho if they are not too expensive I'll keep a spare around)
Cost? Within reason, yes. It needs to be done properly tho. No idea what fiber costs / m anymore, but I'd assume I'm going to get 50m or so (extra for each end), plus the boxes. the conduit and digging the hole is already a sunk cost to get power in there.

@ubergeeknz: thanks, I'll google those ones!

Cheers!

Nic





Nic Wise - Waiheke Island, New Zealand - www.fastchicken.co.nz


deadlyllama
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  #1172704 11-Nov-2014 11:08
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nic.wise: Thanks everyone.

@deadlyllama: yes, it's going to be professionally done, so it'll all be to code. Needless to say I'm not a sparky :) But it'll also be fairly low load, not three phase etc.

Sounds like Fibre is the way to go. Digging a 40cm wide trench might not be worth it. (it's being dig by machine, too, not by hand)

Optimising for:

Chance of it breaking and having to be re-cabled in the future
Compliance!
Time? Not really, assuming I can do it within a day or so.
Simplicity: yes, but mostly of the underground bits, not the bits on the end. If the fiber->ethernet bit breaks, and it takes a week to get a new one, thats not a huge deal. (tho if they are not too expensive I'll keep a spare around)
Cost? Within reason, yes. It needs to be done properly tho. No idea what fiber costs / m anymore, but I'd assume I'm going to get 50m or so (extra for each end), plus the boxes. the conduit and digging the hole is already a sunk cost to get power in there.

@ubergeeknz: thanks, I'll google those ones!

Cheers!

Nic



The small trencher we rented from hirepool made a wide enough trench with a flat bottom, so we ran conduit at each side of the trench.  If your trencher does likewise, run Cat5e.  Conduit is pretty cheap, and Cat5e just works.

My vague recollection is that the separation requirements apply even with fibre, too, so you won't be compliant if you run the fibre right beside the power.  I'm not an electrician, though; my brother has his ticket and we ran power and ethernet to the garage last summer, so I'm basing this on my vague recollections of what we had to do.

timbosan
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  #1172714 11-Nov-2014 11:25
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I am looking at something similar (power and network to shed) but over a much shorter distance, like 3 meters.  Does anyone know if this can be done as in 'overhead' way?  Or does it have to go underground?

And when laying power underground, how to you 'terminate' the conduits?  As in do they come up into the shed, say through the bottom plate, up to where the fuses would be?  Do the ends have to be sealed?

What about at the other end (the house) - if laying yourself where does the conduit have to come out?  Just under the house, or into the walls where the existing power-board is?

I am thinking of doing the grunt work myself then getting a sparky in to certify.

jonb
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  #1172720 11-Nov-2014 11:29
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Fibre seems excessivley complex for this situation with no performance benefits over cat6.

 
 
 
 


deadlyllama
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  #1172721 11-Nov-2014 11:33
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timbosan: I am looking at something similar (power and network to shed) but over a much shorter distance, like 3 meters.  Does anyone know if this can be done as in 'overhead' way?  Or does it have to go underground?

And when laying power underground, how to you 'terminate' the conduits?  As in do they come up into the shed, say through the bottom plate, up to where the fuses would be?  Do the ends have to be sealed?

What about at the other end (the house) - if laying yourself where does the conduit have to come out?  Just under the house, or into the walls where the existing power-board is?

I am thinking of doing the grunt work myself then getting a sparky in to certify.


Talk to your sparky before starting the work, to make sure you'll build something they are comfortable with certifying.

The regulations talk a lot about "adequate protection" which is a bit of a grey area.  My brother is an electrical engineer who has his ticket but usually project-manages sparkies (industrial work), so as a result to ensure our protection is adequate we have conduit absolutely everywhere.  Someone who does household work will have a better idea of what is needed.  You don't want to push really thick and not very bendy TPC through 20m of conduit with about 6 90 degree turns...

notesgnome
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  #1172722 11-Nov-2014 11:34
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For that distance, I'd be tempted to go ethernet over power adapters. They can run at (Theoretically) 200Mbs.

For the 3m to the shed - would your household wireless not reach that far?

deadlyllama
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  #1172727 11-Nov-2014 11:42
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notesgnome: For that distance, I'd be tempted to go ethernet over power adapters. They can run at (Theoretically) 200Mbs.

For the 3m to the shed - would your household wireless not reach that far?


Ethernet over power adapters are expensive compared to conduit and cat5e, with lower performance and reliability.

chevrolux
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  #1172728 11-Nov-2014 11:46
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The cheapest option would be to lay a second conduit with an outdoor Cat 6 cable in it. Plug a switch in at the other end and all done.

If you start talking fibre you need to first of all get some fibre, run it without wrecking it. Get someone to fusion splice it. Buy media converters. It's just not worth it for a garden office only 30m away.

timbosan
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  #1172730 11-Nov-2014 11:50
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deadlyllama:
notesgnome: For that distance, I'd be tempted to go ethernet over power adapters. They can run at (Theoretically) 200Mbs.

For the 3m to the shed - would your household wireless not reach that far?


Ethernet over power adapters are expensive compared to conduit and cat5e, with lower performance and reliability.


Yes, wireless can reach, but I prefer wired (I have a gigabit switch and only a 802.11n Wifi)  Plus as deadlyllama notes - PLC (of which Ethernet over power is part of, specifically HomePlug AV) is not that great, especially when the source and target adapters are on different electrical circuits, plus they are both susceptible to noise, and can possible generate noise.  Plus they are not cheap compared to 20meters of cat5e (the distance from the switch to the shed).

Edited - wrote PoE instead of Ethernet of Power.

nic.wise

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  #1172769 11-Nov-2014 12:15
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OK, so running power and ethernet in the same bit of pipe is a no-no (compliance)

Whats the story with the 40cm distance between them? Is that for interference? or safety?

I'd be fine with running two separate conduits, in the same trench, one with power and one with CAT6 or 7 STP (not UTP).

Otherwise, it's one pipe and some fiber. It IS overkill, but we plan to be in this house with this office for a long, long time, so I want to do it right, once. (or once every 10 years :) )

Thanks everyone!

(oh, and I thought about WIFI, too, but it's too slow, even using dedicated AC gear. IMO anyway. I have a load of trees in between, so only kind of line of sight. Maybe a proper antenna would fix it :))




Nic Wise - Waiheke Island, New Zealand - www.fastchicken.co.nz


frankv
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  #1172771 11-Nov-2014 12:16
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I don't think there's any legal/safety issues about having Ethernet alongside power, just potential problems with the Ethernet, particularly if there are large spikes on the power (e.g. large motors in the shed).

One reason to use fibre rather than copper is that there can be large (relative to Ethernet) voltage differences between buildings... fibre avoids this issue.

I guess you could probably also go with some kind of optical/infrared/laser link?

deadlyllama
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  #1172775 11-Nov-2014 12:30
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nic: 40cm gap -- my understanding is "it's the rules" and primarily for safety.  You have to do the same thing with UFB and power in the same trench.  Options are side-by-side or one above the other -- put one conduit in, enough fill for the spacing, then more conduit and fill to the top.

franky: why use something exotic like optical/etc when you could use WiFi (with a pair of mikrotik/ubiquiti units)?

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