What's going on with 2 Degrees VDSL?

Forums › 2degrees (including Slingshot, Orcon, Flip, Stuff Fibre, MyRepublic, 2talk and Vocus) › What's going on with 2 Degrees VDSL?

erik

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Master Geek

#207673 7-Jan-2017 22:43

After getting my master filter installed through Chorus, my upload went up to 2090 kbit/s and my download went up to 32560 kbit/s.
Considering our distance to the cabinet/exchange on VDSL, I was very happy with that.

However, since last week our upload has been absolutely rubbish again - dropping back to 200 kbit/s but our download stayed about the same.

Given that upload is important to me, this is a bit of an issue. I tried resetting my Fritzbox 7490 and upload went up to around 1300 kbit/s.
Still not the speed I had before, but it was workable.

But tonight, it's back to 331 kbit/s. Given that I need to upload a large amount of large, high-res photos, the drop in upload is a huge pain in the rear.

I compared my current stats with the ones I captured after the master filter install, and things like signal to noise rations and line attenuation all seem the same.
So there seems to be no new/additional signal degradation issue that causes the drop in upload?

Is there something going on with the 2 Degrees/Chorus VDSL network - especially in the Eastbourne region?
Has anyone else noticed a loss in upload performance?

I already got a master filter installed so I think I've done everything I can at my end to make this work properly. And it surely HAS worked just fine - so what else can I do to get connectivity performance back on track again?

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#1700085 7-Jan-2017 23:30

Someone else nearby has also got VDSL now. Expect it to tank even harder as more people move over to it since it costs the same now with many ISPs, why wouldnt you?

Richard rich.ms

DarkShadow

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#1700092 7-Jan-2017 23:58

Don't restart your modem, you'll mess up the DLM. You've done all you can, now just let it work itself out.

Linux

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#1700093 7-Jan-2017 23:58

Crosstalk as more customers connect up to VDSL maybe and what are your VDSL modem line stats?

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erik

58 posts

Master Geek

#1700094 8-Jan-2017 00:05

So this is what my stats looked like a while ago:

And this is what I'm getting today:

And just for good measure, here's today's spectrum:

Hmmm I just noticed the increase in errors (ES) on the Fritz!Box, I wonder what's up with that?

hio77

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Lizard Networks

#1700096 8-Jan-2017 00:23

Given your line i would expect US1 to be higher used, You definitely have the potential to have a much cleaner connection.

What i would do here is call 2degress, have them put a 24 hour test on the line, after that request that they push an asure only request (no tech sent out, this will not charge simply have a chorus agent give the network a look from their side) to look at the US1 band.

Could be something like a bridge tap, which obviously you can do nothing about.

#include <std_disclaimer>

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.

erik

58 posts

Master Geek

#1700764 10-Jan-2017 10:50

Here's an update on the situation.

Last night I rang the 2 Degrees support desk at round 10:00 pm. Within 3 rings I had a very helpful gentleman on the line (sorry I forgot the name) who looked at my current and past stats, confirmed that there was a big drop in upload speed (but it appears my download speed had gone up by 8%) and logged remotely into my Fritz!Box 7490 to see if all the settings were as they should be.

His plan was to ensure the router was okay first, before escalating the problem to Chorus, which I thought was a fair call.

While logged in, he noticed that my firmware on the 7490 was quite out of date - I think it was something like 6.30 whereas the new version is 6.52.
He did confirm that all settings were good and nothing seemed out of place or wrong to him.

He proposed updating the firmware first, which retains all existing settings. If that didn't help, reset everything to factory settings. And if that didn't help, get Chorus in on the problem. He offered to do this all remotely for me but I can manage that myself so I kindly declined, allowing him to help anyone else in need instead.

So after updating the firmware to 6.52, I was presented with a much improved user interface..... and with the 7490 showing my upload to be back at 2 Mb/s!
(From ~400kbit/s before upgrading the firmware)

I also noticed greater stability in the connection overall - e.g. I could now download something large without Netflix crapping out on my TV or reverting to SD instead.

Who knew that an outdated firmware could have such an impact?

Credit where credit is due, this time around my 2 Degrees Support experience was very good and a huge, huge improvement over last year. I don't know if this is just pure luck or if 2 Degrees has actually been working to improve in this area, but I hope this is going to continue forward!

hio77

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Lizard Networks

#1701099 10-Jan-2017 19:28

Firmware can always make differances there.

the fritzbox has a history of certain firmwares being Exceptionally bad for VDSL while others were prefered for certain stability reasons..

I can't speak for the newer firmwares however as i no longer run one as a daily driver.

In relation to your quality in streaming and downloading, likely this will be a different queuing system in use under the hood now.

Given that we are now running 998 rather than 997, the historical 'best' firmwares may certainly under-preform.

There have also been periods of time that Snap have been pushing out there own custom built versions of the FritzOS for NZ connections, although its my understanding that those modifications are now included in the AVM versions.

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erik

58 posts

Master Geek

#1701136 10-Jan-2017 21:27

OK, I guess I was a little premature here.

So the connection was all fine since last night, all great and good.. all the video content started directly in HD again (it had stopped doing that before) and I was able to upload a bunch of images to a client, so all good.

Until about 10 minutes ago, I was watching a video on YouTube and thinks started to.. "stutter"? There was some noticeable slow down and since that moment, just opening another site was a lot slower than 30 minutes ago.

I log into the 7490 and it shows that the upload has gone down to 394 kbit/s, down from 2 Mb/s earlier this evening. And somehow that also affects the download speed of content - or just the connection stability. So now we're right back at where we were yesterday?

Also, it now shows that my carrier record has switched to J43 - from A43 - is that a factor in this?

hio77

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Lizard Networks

#1701142 10-Jan-2017 21:46

erik:

OK, I guess I was a little premature here.

So the connection was all fine since last night, all great and good.. all the video content started directly in HD again (it had stopped doing that before) and I was able to upload a bunch of images to a client, so all good.

Until about 10 minutes ago, I was watching a video on YouTube and thinks started to.. "stutter"? There was some noticeable slow down and since that moment, just opening another site was a lot slower than 30 minutes ago.

I log into the 7490 and it shows that the upload has gone down to 394 kbit/s, down from 2 Mb/s earlier this evening. And somehow that also affects the download speed of content - or just the connection stability. So now we're right back at where we were yesterday?

Also, it now shows that my carrier record has switched to J43 - from A43 - is that a factor in this?

I have always taken the J43 as simply an error in the fritz UI.

Sounds like possibly the issue was temporarily resolved.

just as a test, try turning your fritz off for 5 mins then turn it on again, see if the speed comes back up..

upload speed will affect download preformance due to the fact that for TCP (which 98~% of all the internet is) needs to ACKnowledge every packet it gets.

at 394kbit, i would expect you are maybe getting an average of 16mbit throughput on a stream. (very rough math off the old FS/128kbit plans)

#include <std_disclaimer>

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.

eXDee

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#1701146 10-Jan-2017 22:00

You may or may not be aware of this, so it's worth clarifying, but 2Degrees has little control over the Chorus network. They can request/trigger certain things, such as line tests, profile resets, and such, but for the most part both you and your ISP can dictate quite little. If you're getting issues with line sync speed

This is especially important for VDSL, as it has a process known as DLM. You can read more about this in other threads on geekzone, but essentially Chorus has an algorithm which is monitoring your line to ensure it's always operating the best it can while being error free. If it tries to make it too fast it could start dropping data which would cause major problems. It tends to be quite conservative in general.

So what it does, is it's looking for errors on the line, it's looking for noise, weak signalling etc. And it's looking for drops - which is one reason why some here are telling you to stop restarting your modem, because it is believed that doing often this can be interpreted by the DLM process as a line drop, and therefore an unstable line that needs a more conservative profile.

The DLM process has a 'training' period, where its especially sensitive and making changes almost every night, which is 10-14 days (cant recall) after the line is first provisioned (or is reset by the ISP).

This process can influence the sync speed for upload and download, but more noticeable for most people (without line issues like yours) is interleaving. Some DLM profiles add error correction to the line which also introduces latency. Notice how in your first screenshot your interleaving shows "fast" which is adding no delay, but in the second it has 8ms. This means your ping has increased, in exchange for the ability to perform better error correction on data thats coming in. It's perfectly normal for lines to have interleaving for this reason, unless they are lucky have short distances to their local exchange.

Some don't realize all of this, so think that it's their ISPs fault - when really this process is ISP agnostic and up to Chorus' system. Once you have this understanding it can be easier to work with the ISP to get it resolved, as opposed to some thinking it is the ISP causing the problem. Where it could actually be their fault would be them failing to diagnose it properly - ie using line tests, requesting a port reset/dlm reset, and checking the modem (for things like firmware updates).

Using our line as an example, when we got heavy rain we often encountered an increased error rate - of uncorrectable errors because of no interleaving. This would sometimes be enough to trigger a DLM profile change to one with interleaving, increasing the ping. It would also slightly drop our connection speed as a result of the increased noise from the moisture getting to the line.

So what can you do? Aside from working with the ISPs troubleshooting process to look for faults (as long as they aren't giving you the run around), there is one and that is your modem can request a higher noise margin. In the DSL options the fritzbox has a selector with ~5 steps, and by default I think it comes at the most aggressive, ie it tries to get the highest line sync possible, at risk of errors or stability. This is generally fine in most cases, but in the settings you can adjust it a step towards 'more stability'. Tweaking this might result in a more consistent line, abeit not always quite as high as it was originally. I would recommend following through the ISPs process first however to look for faults or line issues. But in our case it wasn't quite enough that Chorus would recognise it as a fault, and instead tweaking it one step more conservative in the link negotiation process made a more stable line.

richms

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#1701192 10-Jan-2017 23:29

If you make it resync at night when there is less cross talk you will get a higher speed, and then as the others come back online you will keep the speed but have a horrible noise margin and possibly higher error rate, but the connection is much better to use than the low speeds.

I was running for months after the last powercut and therefore oppertunity to get a decent sync speed with a 1-3dB margin, and it was all fine. But then one day it decided to resync and Im back to crap speeds and to make it worse, been demoted to a 8ms profile :(

Richard rich.ms

erik

58 posts

Master Geek

#1703060 14-Jan-2017 09:33

Chorus tech (Downer contractor) was here this morning. Before he came, he measured my upload as 800 kbit/s, which had crept up from the 394 kbit/s I had before.

However, when he climbed onto the roof to measure the speed at the DM / Master Filter, he told me that he's getting 5 Mb upload at that point but my router was only getting 800 kbit/s. He checked that the previous Chorus tech had actually used the appropriate CAT wiring from the filter and that was all good. He then disconnected the lot, reconnected it all up and now it synced back to 2.3Mbit/s upload. While that's a big improvement and back to "normal" (for me), the Chorus tech was puzzled as to why we're still dropping from 5 Mbit upload at the DM to half that a the router.

Time to call 2 Degrees again I suppose?

RunningMan

8953 posts

Uber Geek

#1703063 14-Jan-2017 09:49

Faulty filter perhaps? Uncommon but possible

erik

58 posts

Master Geek

#1703304 14-Jan-2017 21:48

2 Degrees support desk asked me to swap cables between modem and jackpoint just to be sure. I did. The upload is the same but now my landline refuses to work even after putting the original cable back again.

I think I will now assume the foetal position under my desk .....

Update: One factory reset later and my phone is also working again - it appeared that somehow the remote server was no longer syncing the phone line settings correctly. And 2 Degrees are going to get Chorus back to find out why we're losing half our speed. According to their latest reading, I should be getting near 5.5 Mbit/s upload and I'm getting less than half that.

So far, all of my recent calls with their support team have been very good. I understand that they do not have a magic wand to fix all issues but the response has been very supportive and they fully agree that I'm not hitting the performance I should expect after paying $200 to get Chorus do the filter + wiring installation. A huge turn around with the response I got last year when I switched to VDSL the first time around and basically was told "yeah, that's too bad". Massive improvement.

tangerz

625 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1703490 15-Jan-2017 12:49

RunningMan:

Faulty filter perhaps? Uncommon but possible

Or something wrong with the run of Cat cable from DM to router? Cable itself maybe? Or socket connection?

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