IT Professionals New Zealand closing down

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#3420698 2-Oct-2025 16:06

freitasm:

johno1234:

Suggestion in NZ Herald that it is a case of "Go woke, go broke": <paywalled>

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/shock-as-information-technology-professionals-new-zealand-goes-bust-what-its-accounts-reveal-tech-insider/WQZ4YWUKFVB4DGUABFA7XAZTKE/

Commenting after Griffin’s post, tech industry veteran and former Tuanz CEO Ernie Newman said, “A sad announcement. ITPNZ had its heyday in the days when Paul Matthews led it [Matthews was chief executive between 2008 and 2022]. You knew what it stood for – better careers in IT, better standing for the professionals, more government support (custom, not money) for the sector. “But since then, it felt like it drifted into non-core ‘woke’ issues and neglected its core ground.”

That was a comment on Peter's LinkedIn post, not a comment to the NZ Herald.

I think the "woke" argument is wrong anyway.

Au contraire, there has been much discussion about the "go woke go broke" hypothesis fro some time, especially after Paul Matthews left. Seems those who inherited control of the organisation tried to make it in their own vision of a "maorified" group that simply turned so many good people away in dismay. Rather than trying to make us what they wanted to be (the woke bit), they needed to be out keeping the profile up (look how many people haven't heard of it) and getting new members on board.

Personally I have been, and am all for the development of the profession that has ethics, standards, and a body that advocates for it in the higher levels of politics. For years we have had to compete with kiddies just out of school, with some semblacne of skills gleaned from the Internet, but lacking professional project management skills, leaving a mess for someone to clean up after them. I cannot recall how may projects I've inherited from companies pulling their hair out - or what remained of it - after the "kiddy" left on a whim for better pastures.

The mentoring program is important, whereby the seniors get to help the younger members navigate their way in their career.

But the organisation needs to be better positioned, structured, and financed if it is to succeed.

Sadly though, it appears there is no-one around who seems to have a grip on the situation, to get some finance brought in, better funding from the Government, and create a plan for perpetuity.

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#3420702 2-Oct-2025 16:12

The problem with "go woke, go broke" is its caricature is only a small segment and not one I am even sure exists.

There are a far greater number of people who benefit from "woke" who also happen to be very good at their what they do.

So one thing is certain and that's there is a very diverse range of people keeping this industry moving. I am not going to 'out' anyone but I know this for a fact.

IT is quite possibly one of the "wokest" industries out there probably second only to entertainment.

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#3420703 2-Oct-2025 16:14

@bennerg:

Au contraire, there has been much discussion about the "go woke go broke" hypothesis fro some time, especially after Paul Matthews left. Seems those who inherited control of the organisation tried to make it in their own vision of a "maorified" group that simply turned so many good people away in dismay. Rather than trying to make us what they wanted to be (the woke bit), they needed to be out keeping the profile up (look how many people haven't heard of it) and getting new members on board.

Whoa. Why the word in between quotation marks? What meaning is being implied there?

@bennerg

Personally I have been, and am all for the development of the profession that has ethics, standards, and a body that advocates for it in the higher levels of politics. For years we have had to compete with kiddies just out of school, with some semblacne of skills gleaned from the Internet, but lacking professional project management skills, leaving a mess for someone to clean up after them. I cannot recall how may projects I've inherited from companies pulling their hair out - or what remained of it - after the "kiddy" left on a whim for better pastures.

This example tells us more about the leadership and management failings than anything else. Only incredible stupid people would have inexperienced people executing a plan without supervision and management.

It's akin to saying only the old boys club should be allowed to touch the toys.

That's where training and mentoring comes in.

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#3420776 2-Oct-2025 16:53

The first thing I thought when I read the comments from the board was "what have you been doing if you're only in possession of the facts now?!".

Poor management? Sure. Poor governance? Absolutely.

As a long term member across CEOs, I have no idea what is meant by "Maorified".

Maybe it refers to Māori data governance content in recent years? Which isn't so much woke as it is an absolute bloody necessity in this era of offshore cloud providers.

It might go down better to simply call it NZ data governance, but then we don't give credit to the community that pushed so hard for it to be a topic of conversation. Māori are leading this issue and I'm grateful for it.

freitasm

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#3420778 2-Oct-2025 16:58

gehenna:

The first thing I thought when I read the comments from the board was "what have you been doing if you're only in possession of the facts now?!".

From The Reg: "ITP’s CEO stepped down in August, and in an exit interview responded to a question about her biggest achievements in the role by saying “When I joined ITP, it was a brilliant organization with deep roots in the tech community, but to be frank, it was living beyond its means. Refactoring the organization—financially, structurally, and strategically—has been a tough but necessary journey.”"

To be frank, I am under the impression that some of the people that are thinking of the old timer leadership see them with pink glasses but in reality, I am under the impression that same leadership is the one that created the root cause of these problems.

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#3420781 2-Oct-2025 17:17

gehenna:

As a long term member across CEOs, I have no idea what is meant by "Maorified".

It reminds me of a particular right-wing affiliated gun lobby group who's political connections are always platforming their right-wing points of view on anything Maori.

To which I remind them Article #2 of Te Tiriti is surely among the strongest claims they/we have to continued private firearms possession in NZ.

Some folks should think it through a bit better.

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#3420786 2-Oct-2025 17:38

I think this is enough politicisation of the topic.

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evnafets

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#3420787 2-Oct-2025 17:40

Not knowing any context, beyond the linked news articles, and interview, I tentatively put forward an explanation of the term 'maorified'

I am presuming it is a reference to the introduction of Maori language and culture into ITP.

It is evidenced in their website, and the linked exit interview.
Website: "IT Professionals is honoured to have been gifted a Māori name - Te Pou Hangarau Ngaio"
Quote from the exit interview: "When I started including Te Reo Māori in our newsletters, I was shocked by the level of abuse that followed."

It appears the senior leadership were introducing Maori culture to an organisation that hadn't incorporated it previously.
Presumably, some members took issue with that seeing it as being introduced purely for reasons of political correctness a.k.a "going woke".

After all what relevance do such things have to do with being an IT professional? (Disclaimer: Rhetorical question that does not reflect my own views, but makes the point)

MichaelNZ

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#3420790 2-Oct-2025 17:51

evnafets:

After all what relevance do such things have to do with being an IT professional? (Disclaimer: Rhetorical question that does not reflect my own views, but makes the point)

Aotearoa New Zealand is a South Pacific country and the indigenous culture in this part of the world is Maori - Pasifika.

Furthermore, its the norm including among comparable highly developed countries to have a bilingual thing going on.

I don't get their concern. English has by far prevailed in dominance in the world so its not going anywhere.

So a bit of Te Reo is among what makes this country unique and I for one would like to learn a bit more.

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bennerg

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#3420800 2-Oct-2025 18:51

bennerg:

Au contraire, there has been much discussion about the "go woke go broke" hypothesis fro some time, especially after Paul Matthews left. Seems those who inherited control of the organisation tried to make it in their own vision of a "maorified" group that simply turned so many good people away in dismay. Rather than trying to make us what they wanted to be (the woke bit), they needed to be out keeping the profile up (look how many people haven't heard of it) and getting new members on board.

freitasm:

Whoa. Why the word in between quotation marks? What meaning is being implied there?

Looking at the Society's accounts on the Societies Register we see that at the end of last year this was the financial status:

From Balance Sheet
Assets as of 31 December 2024 $183,387
Liabilities as of 31 December 2024 $ 94,034
Total Equity as of 31 December 2024 $ 89,352

To go from that to today indicates a really major change. Either in income or outgoings. My own position is that I observed the organisation going down the DEI / Woke agenda, and in discussions with many friends, it appears interest has waned as a result. So I'm not implying anything other than what is stated.

We do not have current financials, but it will tell a story I'm sure.

The board states: "The model for ITP has become unsustainable. Longstanding unrecoverable debts, the expiry of the BCS CITP licence, wider struggles facing membership organisations, and tough economic conditions all combined to make continuation impossible."

I have questions:

1. What are the "Longstanding unrecoverable debts"? Are they membership fees?
2. Why has the BCS Licence expired? Why do we pay for it when we have the skills to create our own.
3. "wider struggles facing membership organisations" ... so I suggest:

a. quit the office, sell the desks and photocopier
b. fire the board, get 3 new board members,
c. employ a new well briefed manager to work from home, and a part time membership person (8 hours per week!)
d. contract financials out to a local bookkeeper.
e. get a committee of volunteers to work on and create our own certification
f. ramp up the mentoring programme
g. spend some money on a more dynamic engaging website featuring certified members
h. remove all cultural / DEI indoctrination from the organisation, and focus on core business
i. engage the membership .... again and again and again.

In the 2025 year (2024-2025) Income was half a million dollars (504k) and expenses $473,735.00. Wow!!!!

freitasm

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#3420801 2-Oct-2025 19:08

bennerg:

Au contraire, there has been much discussion about the "go woke go broke" hypothesis fro some time, especially after Paul Matthews left. Seems those who inherited control of the organisation tried to make it in their own vision of a "maorified" group that simply turned so many good people away in dismay. Rather than trying to make us what they wanted to be (the woke bit), they needed to be out keeping the profile up (look how many people haven't heard of it) and getting new members on board.

freitasm:

Whoa. Why the word in between quotation marks? What meaning is being implied there?

Looking at the Society's accounts on the Societies Register we see that at the end of last year this was the financial status:

From Balance Sheet
Assets as of 31 December 2024 $183,387
Liabilities as of 31 December 2024 $ 94,034
Total Equity as of 31 December 2024 $ 89,352

To go from that to today indicates a really major change. Either in income or outgoings. My own position is that I observed the organisation going down the DEI / Woke agenda, and in discussions with many friends, it appears interest has waned as a result. So I'm not implying anything other than what is stated.

We do not have current financials, but it will tell a story I'm sure.

The board states: "The model for ITP has become unsustainable. Longstanding unrecoverable debts, the expiry of the BCS CITP licence, wider struggles facing membership organisations, and tough economic conditions all combined to make continuation impossible."

I have questions:

1. What are the "Longstanding unrecoverable debts"? Are they membership fees?
2. Why has the BCS Licence expired? Why do we pay for it when we have the skills to create our own.
3. "wider struggles facing membership organisations" ... so I suggest:

a. quit the office, sell the desks and photocopier
b. fire the board, get 3 new board members,
c. employ a new well briefed manager to work from home, and a part time membership person (8 hours per week!)
d. contract financials out to a local bookkeeper.
e. get a committee of volunteers to work on and create our own certification
f. ramp up the mentoring programme
g. spend some money on a more dynamic engaging website featuring certified members
h. remove all cultural / DEI indoctrination from the organisation, and focus on core business
i. engage the membership .... again and again and again.

In the 2025 year (2024-2025) Income was half a million dollars (504k) and expenses $473,735.00. Wow!!!!

I'm flabbergasted that you include whistle words such as "cultural and DEI indocrination" in there without a shred of evidence.

Let me propose a different scenario, which could be as possible as your "cultural and DEI indocrination" causing the society to fold:

Previous administration did not correctly manage funds
Next administration failed to execute an audit for three financial years, therefore ignoring or not recognising the previous failings
Last administration took the reins and in two months realised how fucked the society was.

This sounds more like the result of bad management than "DEI and woke".

Do we really need to bring fake cultural wars into this discussion?

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freitasm

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#3420802 2-Oct-2025 19:12

Last warning to everyone: leave politics outside of this discussion.

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bennerg

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#3420805 2-Oct-2025 19:47

I'm flabbergasted that you include whistle words such as "cultural and DEI indocrination" in there without a shred of evidence.

Let me propose a different scenario, which could be as possible as your "cultural and DEI indocrination" causing the society to fold:

Previous administration did not correctly manage funds
Next administration failed to execute an audit for three financial years, therefore ignoring or not recognising the previous failings
Last administration took the reins and in two months realised how ****** the society was.

This sounds more like the result of bad management than "DEI and woke".

Do we really need to bring fake cultural wars into this discussion?

1. "cultural and DEI indocrination ... without a shred of evidence" ...

Let me copy to you part a recent email from the "new GM"

"Kia ora koutou,

I’m delighted to be stepping into the role of General Manager at ITP. It’s a real privilege to serve this community of professionals who are shaping the future of technology in Aotearoa.
...

Ngā mihi nui,
Liz Foxwell-Canning
General Manager
ITP NZ | Te Pou Hangarau Ngaio"

Need I say more. For a good number of membership that is NOT what ITP is/was about. And it appears they have voted with their feet.

2. "Previous administration did not correctly manage funds"

The end of 2024 accounts showed a healthy equity situation, and a healthy income. Expenses were IMHO too high, and suggest a "bureaucractic approach" to running the orgamisation. See my suggestions above to run a pared down organisation.

3. "Last administration took the reins and in two months realised how ****** the society was"

I think you mean current administration.

At the end of 2024 the Accounts indicate it was fine (liquidity wise), although as I've pointed out, they had the opportunity to see the situation as it was at the end of 2024 (and perhaps even earlier), and did not take the steps to fix two major stand outs:

a. high outgoings ($496,000+)
b. what they were doing wrong with membership retention.

The biggest issue is IMHO that the management and board got caught in the "Wellington Bubble" believing all the drivel that seems to infect that place. This is NOT being "political", it is the reality of the situation, and I'm sure more will come out over the next few days/ weeks. October 23rd is the SGM, and I suspect it will be an uncomfortable day for the board and management.

BTW there was a comment in one of the ITP "Panui" (newsletters) mentioning a criticism expressed about the nature of the communications (maorified), but was put in the form of a harsh put down, indicating an arrogance that we know best for you. And obviously not inviting any further discussion on the matter.

freitasm

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#3420806 2-Oct-2025 19:51

@bennerg:

freitasm:

I'm flabbergasted that you include whistle words such as "cultural and DEI indocrination" in there without a shred of evidence.

Do we really need to bring fake cultural wars into this discussion?

1. "cultural and DEI indocrination ... without a shred of evidence" ...

Let me copy to you part a recent email from the "new GM"

"Kia ora koutou,

I’m delighted to be stepping into the role of General Manager at ITP. It’s a real privilege to serve this community of professionals who are shaping the future of technology in Aotearoa.
...

Ngā mihi nui,
Liz Foxwell-Canning
General Manager
ITP NZ | Te Pou Hangarau Ngaio"

Need I say more. For a good number of membership that is NOT what ITP is/was about. And it appears they have voted with their feet.

Oh, my goodness. Someone used Maori words in an email and some boomers got offended.

That's it.

Good riddance.

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snj

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#3420808 2-Oct-2025 20:25

I don't think it was in the NZ Herald article previously, but it seems based on what ITP president Jamie Vaughan said to the Herald that the ITP weren't paying dues to the BCS for quite a while and that in turn meant the BCS cancelled ITP's recognition. Sounds like the issues were squarely on financial management.

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