EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#1911711 1-Dec-2017 14:50

MarkH67:

morrisk:

I had a quote to have a 16amp dedicated plug run to my parking spot and this came in at $7000 so it will be trickle charging i.e. for the Ioniq around 18 hours for full charge.

Wouldn't it only take 18 hours if you had it down to zero?

Are you able to get another quote from someone else? $7k seems a bit much, $700 would be a bit more reasonable. How many kilometers away are they running the 16A cable from?

I'm guessing the quote was to run the 16 amp feed from the owners side of the apartment meter, so all the charges were contained on the same power bill,....

morrisk

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#1911723 1-Dec-2017 15:30

wellygary:

MarkH67:

morrisk:

I had a quote to have a 16amp dedicated plug run to my parking spot and this came in at $7000 so it will be trickle charging i.e. for the Ioniq around 18 hours for full charge.

Wouldn't it only take 18 hours if you had it down to zero?

Are you able to get another quote from someone else? $7k seems a bit much, $700 would be a bit more reasonable. How many kilometers away are they running the 16A cable from?

I'm guessing the quote was to run the 16 amp feed from the owners side of the apartment meter, so all the charges were contained on the same power bill,....

So yes 18 hours from 0 i.e. a full charge and this wouldn't be often. Car has a range or ~220km.

The parking garage holds 100 cars and is 4 stories - my park is at the top and the switch board is on the ground floor. The feed is not via my apartment meter which is in a connected building and up 6 floors so there was a separate meter quoted for to keep track of usage.

Solutions are not straight forward but this area is evolving all the time so I am sure there will be an answer when needed. Definitely would be putting the whole project out for tender and getting different quotes when the time comes.

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#1911732 1-Dec-2017 15:57

WyleECoyoteNZ:
wellygary:

WyleECoyoteNZ:

One more thing, and surely this must be the case

Are the charging connectors standard across all EV's? So can\could I plug my EV in to charge, regardless of it being a Tesla, BMW or Nissan?

<smile>

For DC charging NZ recommends either the Japanese standard CHAdeMO or the European standard (CCS type 2)

- charge.net have chargers that support these two options,

Tesla has another type of standard,-(but there is an adaptor to allow it to use Japanese style CHAdeMO plus)

Well, that's just plain silly.

Somewhere\sometimes there has been any agreement between automakers that the petrol filler is a certain size to allow filling in either NZ, Australia, USA or UK.

There needs to be an international standard for EV's too.

No more silly than there being different types of petrol in different countries for different engines. Then add lpg, cng desiel, We cope with this.

Things are all newly developing so going to be the moment of difficulty when rolling out technology.

I've done 7000km in my leaf and used rapid charger 8 times.

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#1912083 2-Dec-2017 20:23

k14:

Great question and it is something I think will end up being the biggest bottleneck when it comes to getting mass EV uptake. The grid infrastructure will most likely be able to handle everyone at home charging at 16 or 32 amps overnight to cover their daily commute (up to say 150km per day) pretty easily. However the fast chargers if they continue to increase the speed at which they charge will have to be built right next to power stations/switchyards or cost enormous amounts to install. Already the installation of putting in 3 fast charges in one install put them into a category of the electrical regs that require a much more costly metering system plus higher frequency of inspections etc. This is just for a 150A three phase load. Imagine how big the connection will be for a Tesla semi. Even though Tesla haven't released the information yet a rough calculation I saw online would mean the load on charger would equate to 1.2MW. That kind of stuff is only feasible either right beside an existing Transpower substation or directly next to a power station. Having those connected to a 11kV network is basically not possible. I really struggle to see how all these generation 2 or 3 fast charging installations are going to be installed that allow 5-10 min charging for say 500km of range.

It's a great question. :-)

There are some answers. Yes, as was pointed out, most people will charge at home. The people who need to fast chargers tend to be those on road trips. So far, I;ve not seen much congestion around any fast chargers, but it is happening more often on weekends and at those places that are a crossroads. Taupo is a good example. There is really just the one general fast charger there and this week I used once alone and twice when someone else had just left or was just arriving.

That got me thinking. My own charging "method" is to fast charge as little a possible on each occasion. About half of my sessions would be under 10 mins. Many are just 5 or 6 minutes. I only need 40-60km boost to get the next charger......and that's only 5-10kWh .....and those charges take 7 or 12 minutes. Because we're only talking about a small proportion of EVs road tripping at any one time......so far.....no problem.

But I can see one Saturday morning at 11am when a dozen EVs in Auckland finally get out of bed....and all turn up at Greenlane. That's Auckland all over: Go early or don't bother.

How to solve that? Tesla do it really cleverly. They install battery storage at the site and keep it topped up off the grid. That way they don't need to be near major infrastructure. They just need somewhere to site a half a megawatt of batteries.....and some chargers. This way they can charge several cars at the same time at a rate the grid can't possibly support....and rely on the grid to recharge their charging site batteries as the cars charge and after they leave.

The future is going to be all about batteries. For driving...and for charging. Those big semi trucks will be charged from Tesla batteries....not the grid directly. Wind and solar could back that up.

One interesting thing about the new Tesla Roadster was the 200kWh battery in it. I think we will see that in other Tesla cars soon. That's 1,200km range.....more than any petrol car around today that I know of.

When 200kWh batteries are common, you won't need to charge up away from home unless you're on a really long trip.......

Thinking about it.....the bigger the batteries, the less need there is for charging stations.

Another element in this is home users sharing their power. I can charge a car at 7kw at my house in Opotiki. That can half fill a Tesla 100 in 7 hours.....while they spend the day at the beach or overnight. Maybe like AirBnB we all can sell our power to people who need it.

I'll get 3-phase in and offer 22kw charging. That will fill a Tesla 100 completely in about 6 hours. But they may only need an hour for the extra 17kw (80-90km).

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#1912098 2-Dec-2017 20:42

Went to the Christchurch EV show today, Plenty of EV's to ride in / test drive

Myself, I went in a

BMW i3
Nissan Leaf
Hyundai Ioniq

And took a ride in a Telsa Model S

Pretty cool. Look forward to this event again

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#1912119 2-Dec-2017 21:33

WyleECoyoteNZ:

One more thing, and surely this must be the case

Are the charging connectors standard across all EV's? So can\could I plug my EV in to charge, regardless of it being a Tesla, BMW or Nissan?

Most of the world has settle on Type 2 "Mennekes" for AC. The charger has a Type 2 socket...and you bring whatever cable you need to connect that to your car.

For DC a version of Type 2 ("Combo 2") is used pretty much everywhere outside the US and Canada. They use CCS "Type 1" based on the J1772 standard from Japan.,,,,if not just CHAdeMO (also from Japan) because most Evs are LEAFs. Tesla have their own connectors based on Type 2 (outside the US and Japan). Their chargers can't be used by other vehicles because Tesla talk to the car to see if it's allowed to charge. The blockage is at the marketing layer, not the physical layer. China has their own standard....but we won't see any of those because they are all LHD.

It sounds confusing.....but it's not really.

If you want to talk complexity then cell phones are a good example. Roaming has been a big issue for decades thanks to cellular frequency inconsistencies.

Or you could look at power outlets. Our plugs are used in Oz and Singapore and no where else. The UK has their own chunky plugs. The EU has a different standard again.....and North America differetn again...and that's after almost a century.

Compared to those messes.....EVs are already pretty consistent and there isn't much variation. Just 2-3 different plugs and *every* electric car talks to at least the 3-pin 10amp wall socket.

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#1912135 2-Dec-2017 21:52

There is a Tesla model S on display in Albany mall if anyone is interested.

Linuxluver

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#1912153 2-Dec-2017 22:47

morrisk:

EVs in apartment garages is an interesting problem. I have just purchased a Hyundai Ioniq EV and live in an apartment with my parking being in the apartment garage - along with around 100 other cars. My car will be the first EV when it arrives next week. There are plug points at various points in the garage as shown in the picture below. These are just rated at 10amps so can only be used for trickle charging. I had a quote to have a 16amp dedicated plug run to my parking spot and this came in at $7000 so it will be trickle charging i.e. for the Ioniq around 18 hours for full charge.

I have negotiated with the body corporate and I am metering the power use using an Elgato Eve Energy unit as shown in the picture - the detail of what I use comes to my iPhone via bluetooth - and I will provide the body corporate with my usage on a quarterly basis and pay for the power.

This is all workable for my car being the first but there will be issues as the number of cars increase beyond the number of plugs that can provide trickle charging.I will be working with the BC on solutions to this. I think it is likely that the BC will wire the garage with higher amperage to all levels or perhaps have all EV owners have their parking consolidated to the floor near the main switch board and thus minimise costs for the new wiring. Who pays but it could be that the BC pays and then EV owners buy the right to have a charging point perhaps. Will have to look at these issues once EV numbers increase.

Interesting.

It's worth noting that in NZ apartments are something you buy whereas in most of the developed world they are something you rent......unless you're rich and buy a huge palatial "condo".

My mother lives in a 749 apartment complex in Ottawa. They are all rentals. There is underground parking which also doubles as a recreational area in the winter when it's -20C outside. In each area / zone there are 10 EV charging points already built in. Her complex is 5 years old....so relatively new. But even so...they are ALREADY there. That's partly because the provincial government in Ontario put in place incentives for developers to include them.

It's a good thing to have a government that actually does something about climate change. We waited long enough to have one and now we do. Hopefully many things will improve.

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Linuxluver

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#1912154 2-Dec-2017 22:59

There was an interesting article in the Guardian today about how, in many places, electric cars are *already* cheaper to own and operate (across 4-5 years) than petrol or deisel cars.

EVs already cheaper than petrol or deisel.

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MarkH67

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#1912168 3-Dec-2017 07:19

Linuxluver:

When 200kWh batteries are common, you won't need to charge up away from home unless you're on a really long trip.......

Even on a road trip, with well over 1,000km range you would only need to charge overnight while you sleep. The need for fast charging would be much reduced or eliminated.

Maybe in the future we will end up with 200+ kWh batteries and fast chargers that can pump in 350kW instead of 50kW so adding some range when you do feel the need will be very fast and mostly you wont even need it. If pretty much all accomodation (hotels, motels, B&Bs, camp grounds, etc) offers 20kW destination chargers then there just wont be any huge demand for the fast chargers.

If you have 200kWh of battery in your car then there is nowhere in NZ that is difficult to reach. Headwinds and steep hills may reduce your range, but it really wont matter. Even towing wont be a problem, if it halves your range then you can still reach most destinations without needing to stop for a charge. Today towing with an EV may be difficult, but that wont be a problem in a decade or two. Even someone that lives in an apartment and has to park on the street is going to have no problem, they could just swing by a fast charger once a week and within 15 minute have enough charge for another week's worth of driving.

In the UK they have suggested banning the sale of new fossil fuel burners from 2040 - cool idea, but it will never happen. Why would any country legislate to ban the sale of something that no longer exists? By 2040 all the car manufacturers will have dropped the fossil fuel burners because they no longer sell, the only FFBs on the road will be the existing ones and their numbers will be dropping steadily. By 2050 there will be much fewer petrol stations in existence around the world, there just wont be much business to be had for them. EVs may make up a small percentage of cars on the road today, but even by 2025 it will become obvious how quickly that is changing.

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#1912321 3-Dec-2017 16:56

WyleECoyoteNZ: Well, that's just plain silly.

Somewhere\sometimes there has been any agreement between automakers that the petrol filler is a certain size to allow filling in either NZ, Australia, USA or UK.

There needs to be an international standard for EV's too.

That's the beauty of standards. There are so many to choose from.

The phone charging cable was mentioned earlier, the normal electrical wall plug is another hassle / inconvenience that you are subjected to, although less frequently.

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#1912323 3-Dec-2017 17:08

Linuxluver:

There was an interesting article in the Guardian today about how, in many places, electric cars are *already* cheaper to own and operate (across 4-5 years) than petrol or deisel cars.

EVs already cheaper than petrol or deisel.

ALthough The study is based on only owning the car for 3 years from new, which I am guessing is NOT what happens in real life for most people.......

GV27

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#1912471 4-Dec-2017 07:41

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/259772-graphene-balls-boost-battery-capacity-45-charging-speed-500

Interesting if just because it's a Samsung-related development and has a little more credibility from a commercial stand-point than the usual generic research paper announcement.

Linuxluver

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#1912727 4-Dec-2017 15:13

wellygary:

Linuxluver:

There was an interesting article in the Guardian today about how, in many places, electric cars are *already* cheaper to own and operate (across 4-5 years) than petrol or deisel cars.

EVs already cheaper than petrol or deisel.

ALthough The study is based on only owning the car for 3 years from new, which I am guessing is NOT what happens in real life for most people.......

You may be surprised. Lease terms are typically 3 years in many places. In my own family, those who buy new cars roll them over after 3 years because that's the sweet spot for trade-ins on a newer model.

It's much more common to buy or lease new cars in Canada, the US, Japan and much of Europe. NZ's market is too small......so we generally get poor deals and those poor deals are FAR better than it used to be. Until 1966 you could only buy a new car if you had foreign currency. It wasn't possible to buy one with NZ$.....only second hand.

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#1916956 11-Dec-2017 20:21

Dodgy car dealers. I had a look through the EVs on Trade me. And there were 9 cars listed as EVs (fuel type specified as electric). That were not an EV.

2 of them were just normal petrol cars While the rest were hybrids. My definition of an electric car is that it has a charging port for a traction battery. Making it possible to drive the car without needing any hydrocarbon fuels. Therefore cars like the Toyota aqua or Nissan Note Epower are not electric cars. As the only energy source that you can provide to them is petrol.

There is also a well known EV dealer who is advertising the Note Epower as zero emission. In Other words that dealer is claiming that a petrol engine in a car that can only be fuelled by petrol, is supposedly zero emissions.

Rrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

And car dealers wounder why the public always considers them to be dodgy.

I have reported all of them to Trade me. One got removed almost immediately, so far the rest of them are still listed.

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