Netflix to crack down on unblockers

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Awrrr
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#1510613 10-Mar-2016 14:47

SaltyNZ:

Here is what I read in the TPP:

These things are always full of hooks. My first question might be what the definition of 'public' is. I'm not a lawyer but it could be argued that once content is released to any audience, it has been made 'public' and any other conditions attached to its use are no longer the provenance of law.

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charliebrownnz

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#1510617 10-Mar-2016 15:00

tdgeek:

Rikkitic:

Bad laws create contempt for all laws. Civil matters just invite civil disobedience. I would not violate any criminal law but I also would not hesitate to look for ways to enable me to safely commit a civil offense if I felt the law in question was unjust or unreasonable. All too often, the law really is an ass. There are countless examples of muddled legislation that has proven unworkable in practise because it was hastily conceived in a state of panic, or created to appease a powerful vested interest, or simple drawn up by corrupt or incompetent legislators. Laws have to make sense and a law that says I cannot view content that is freely available to others but forbidden to me solely because I happen to have the misfortune to reside in an insignificant backwater country that no-one gives a damn about, is not a law I have any desire or intention to respect.

And yet once again, let me make clear that I am NOT talking about piracy, which is obtaining paid content for free. I am talking about choice, which is my right (yes, right) to pay for something that happens to be distributed somewhere else.

I think the first bold covers it nicely.

Its not about the law, its about this bold highlight.

And it is the same as piracy. Torrenting is getting content that you are not eligible for. Geo unblocking is the same. That you are paying for it is not relevant, it's more a not guilty feeling. There are reasons why the owner decides not to sell it to you, right now. Target them, not NF, Govt or TPPA.

Complete and utter BS. I am legally entitled to get content via geoblocking. Not so much via torrenting. In the event pirating and bypassing geoblocking becomes the same then I and many many many people will happily pirate, but untill then, it is BS to call the two the same.

Hammerer

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#1510620 10-Mar-2016 15:08

charliebrownnz:

tdgeek:

And it is the same as piracy. Torrenting is getting content that you are not eligible for. Geo unblocking is the same. That you are paying for it is not relevant, it's more a not guilty feeling. There are reasons why the owner decides not to sell it to you, right now. Target them, not NF, Govt or TPPA.

Complete and utter BS. I am legally entitled to get content via geoblocking. Not so much via torrenting. In the event pirating and bypassing geoblocking becomes the same then I and many many many people will happily pirate, but untill then, it is BS to call the two the same.

We are almost certainly not "legally entitled to get content via geoblocking" otherwise someone would likely have challenged Netflix blocking geo-blocking or gone to the Commerce Commission or something similar.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#1510628 10-Mar-2016 15:09

SaltyNZ:

Here is what I read in the TPP:

Lawyers are going to have a field day with the vague wording of this. Quite apart from the definition of 'public', what about the distinction between 'physical' and non- physical copies? A film in a canister is certainly physical, but a DVD is no different than a hard drive or bits in the ether. All of it is data contained by some sort of medium. I could certainly argue that my streamed copy is 'physical'. I think this is going to turn into a tangled mess.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Hammerer

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#1510631 10-Mar-2016 15:12

I feel like deja vu with much of our discussion. We're simply going around in a circle to discussions from last year before Netflix began blocking geo-blocking.

I also realise that we probably pay a relatively high price for Netflix because we don't have a lot of piracy. Netflix treats piracy as their main competitor. That creates a moral dilemma for NZ users because we don't want to encourage piracy but it is probably the main leverage we have to get a better price.

See Netflix interview April 2015 about VPNs and piracy.

Ted Sarandos
- Netflix Inc -
Chief Content Officer
Yes, it's one of the many things that we have discussions with studios about on an ongoing basis, and we do continue to work with them, and work
with the VPNs. To be honest with you, it's kind of a whackamole to get ahead of the different usage of VPNs. It's become kind of a lifestyle thing
for a very small segment of the population.
The real great news is, in the piracy capitals of the world, Netflix is winning. We're pushing down piracy in those markets by getting the access. The
best way to really make the VPN issue a completely non-issue is through global licensing that we're continuing to pursue with our partners.
David Wells
- Netflix Inc -
CFO
Hark, to annotate to Ted, the only comments that I would add to Reed's earlier pricing comments were piracy is a governor in terms of our price
in high piracy markets outside the US. We wouldn't want to come out with a high price, because there's a lot of piracy. So we have to compete with
that. So there is a little bit of governor on our price outside the US.

SaltyNZ

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#1510650 10-Mar-2016 15:34

ockel:

All you are doing is transferring wealth to Netflix shareholders - not the content creators.

I see no reason to care about that. If I was dumb enough to sell you my brand new Jaguar for $50, would you reimburse me the other $74,950 I realised I could have gotten for it when I opened up the paper and looked at some advertisements?

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SaltyNZ

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#1510653 10-Mar-2016 15:40

Hammerer:

We are almost certainly not "legally entitled to get content via geoblocking" otherwise someone would likely have challenged Netflix blocking geo-blocking or gone to the Commerce Commission or something similar.

Several someones did just that, last year. Expensive lawyers came out on both sides - it's legal because parallel importing; it's illegal because not parallel importing - but in the end the defendants settled because even a win would be a loss after paying for the lawyers. So the proposition remains what it has been for the last several years: not legal, not illegal, but 'untested in court.' However, the TPPA looks to put paid to it despite the government telling us 'oh, no, there won't be any law changes required ...'

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Hammerer

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#1510733 10-Mar-2016 17:04

That was a different issue about providing the service rather than using it. The copyright holders and their representatives focused on the business providing geo-unblocking and didn't even address the consumer issue although, by implication, consumers would be affected too.

Edit to add:

The Netflix issue is also about breaking the Netflix terms and conditions.

SaltyNZ

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#1510762 10-Mar-2016 17:12

Hammerer:
The Netflix issue is also about breaking the Netflix terms and conditions.

Which is a civil issue, breach of contract, for which the sole remedy is termination of service.

Which would be annoying, but not exactly something I'd kill myself over.

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TeaLeaf

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#1510775 10-Mar-2016 17:39

again, if netflix are so concerned, why dont they just remove the accounts from known geo blocking IPs?

why are we wasting our countries tax payer money chasing this thing?

Sam91

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#1510780 10-Mar-2016 17:46

Why doesn't Netflix just change their system to deliver content based on the original signup location? In other words, your account is locked to one region, instead of changing as you change location. Sign up for a NZ account you get NZ content, sign up for a US account, you get US content. Obviously it would annoy regular travellers, that's the major downside.

I don't see a problem with a Kiwi signing up for Netflix US instead of Netflix NZ. Like others have said, you can liken it to parallel importing. However, I don't see why we should expect to access Netflix NZ content as well while paying the one fee. To sign up for one account and pay only $13, and then have access to content from 20+ countries, this is where it makes me feel slightly uneasy and greedy : )

Not an attack on unblocker users, I use one too.

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surfisup1000

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#1510786 10-Mar-2016 18:00

Sam91:

Why doesn't Netflix just change their system to deliver content based on the original signup location? In other words, your account is locked to one region, instead of changing as you change location. Sign up for a NZ account you get NZ content, sign up for a US account, you get US content. Obviously it would annoy regular travellers, that's the major downside.

I don't see a problem with a Kiwi signing up for Netflix US instead of Netflix NZ. Like others have said, you can liken it to parallel importing. However, I don't see why we should expect to access Netflix NZ content as well while paying the one fee. To sign up for one account and pay only $13, and then have access to content from 20+ countries, this is where it makes me feel slightly uneasy and greedy : )

Not an attack on unblocker users, I use one too.

Where you close one door you open another . Easy to get around what you suggest , think youshop for netflix.

NonprayingMantis

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#1510787 10-Mar-2016 18:08

SaltyNZ:

ockel:

All you are doing is transferring wealth to Netflix shareholders - not the content creators.

I see no reason to care about that. If I was dumb enough to sell you my brand new Jaguar for $50, would you reimburse me the other $74,950 I realised I could have gotten for it when I opened up the paper and looked at some advertisements?

maybe you don't care, but an incredibly common argument made in favour of using geoblockers to access Netflix instead of simply pirating the content is along the lines of "these guys are so dumb, I'm giving them money and they are trying to stop me!" or

"I feel much better about using Netflix USA vs piracy, because I know I'm paying for the content and so the content creators are rewarded. Much better than piracy"

when the reality is that by using USA netflix you actually aren't paying the content creators anything.

From the content creators point of view, you are no different to a pirate in the sense that you are accessing their content, and they are receiving no money for that access.

The fact that you pay Netflix is irrelevant to them.

To them, that is no different from you paying the bootlegger at the local market for a pirated DVD, even if that DVD was copied from a legally purchased DVD.

If blocking USA netflix from 100,000 kiwis means that 99,000 of them turn to piracy and the remaining 1000 turn to locally purchased options (e.g. iTunes) - then that is a net WIN for the content creators. Before the block, that was 100,000 kiwis who were giving the content creators nothing. Now it is only 99,000 giving the content creators nothing, and 1000 who are paying them something.

shk292

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#1510790 10-Mar-2016 18:14

NonprayingMantis:
SaltyNZ:

ockel:

All you are doing is transferring wealth to Netflix shareholders - not the content creators.

I see no reason to care about that. If I was dumb enough to sell you my brand new Jaguar for $50, would you reimburse me the other $74,950 I realised I could have gotten for it when I opened up the paper and looked at some advertisements?

maybe you don't care, but an incredibly common argument made in favour of using geoblockers to access Netflix instead of simply pirating the content is along the lines of "these guys are so dumb, I'm giving them money and they are trying to stop me!"

when the reality is that by using USA netflix you actually aren't paying the content creators anything.

From the content creators point of view, you are no different to a pirate in the sense that you are accessing their content, and they are receiving no money for that access.

The fact that you pay Netflix is irrelevant to them.

To them, that is no different from you paying the bootlegger at the local market for a pirated DVD, even if that DVD was copied from a legally purchased DVD.

If blocking USA netflix from 100,000 kiwis means that 99,000 of them turn to piracy and the remaining 1000 turn to locally purchased options (e.g. iTunes) - then that is a net WIN for the content creators. Before the block, that was 100,000 kiwis who were giving the content creators nothing. Now it is only 99,000 giving the content creators nothing, and 1000 who are paying them something.

Two massive holes in your argument:
1. The fact that the licensing model takes no account of viewer numbers is studio's fault, not mine. They need to fix it
2. How is it any better for the studios if I sign up to a local service to access the content? Sky etc work under exactly the same flawed licensing model as Netflix USA. The only difference is for material which is only available here on Ppv, but as a bundle elsewhere

ockel

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#1510793 10-Mar-2016 18:20

shk292:
NonprayingMantis:

SaltyNZ:

ockel:

All you are doing is transferring wealth to Netflix shareholders - not the content creators.

I see no reason to care about that. If I was dumb enough to sell you my brand new Jaguar for $50, would you reimburse me the other $74,950 I realised I could have gotten for it when I opened up the paper and looked at some advertisements?

maybe you don't care, but an incredibly common argument made in favour of using geoblockers to access Netflix instead of simply pirating the content is along the lines of "these guys are so dumb, I'm giving them money and they are trying to stop me!"

when the reality is that by using USA netflix you actually aren't paying the content creators anything.

From the content creators point of view, you are no different to a pirate in the sense that you are accessing their content, and they are receiving no money for that access.

The fact that you pay Netflix is irrelevant to them.

To them, that is no different from you paying the bootlegger at the local market for a pirated DVD, even if that DVD was copied from a legally purchased DVD.

If blocking USA netflix from 100,000 kiwis means that 99,000 of them turn to piracy and the remaining 1000 turn to locally purchased options (e.g. iTunes) - then that is a net WIN for the content creators. Before the block, that was 100,000 kiwis who were giving the content creators nothing. Now it is only 99,000 giving the content creators nothing, and 1000 who are paying them something.

Two massive holes in your argument:
1. The fact that the licensing model takes no account of viewer numbers is studio's fault, not mine. They need to fix it
2. How is it any better for the studios if I sign up to a local service to access the content? Sky etc work under exactly the same flawed licensing model as Netflix USA. The only difference is for material which is only available here on Ppv, but as a bundle elsewhere

So its okay to buy a bootleg copy of something because thats a contractual problem between the bootlegger and the studio? Its just not your problem and so long as you've paid something then your conscience is clear.

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