2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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BDFL - Memuneh
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#2597202 3-Nov-2020 18:12

debo:

Because not everyone is a tinfoil hat wearing nutcase. I have simply just turned on Timeline is Google maps. It tracks everywhere I go including when I leave a business and private locations that don't have QR codes. No need to even touch my phone.

People need to stop assuming that the Covid ap is the only way to track one's movement.

If the government just joined the 20th century and enabled GPS on the ap then the scan/tracking rate will go through the roof. The tinfoil hat brigade can continue to use QR codes and everyone else can let's their phones track them from their pockets.

It is not "The Government" (that sounds like tinfoil hat speak). The MoH app was developed with input from, amongst others, the Privacy Commission. Constant tracking was not something they wanted in there exactly because that is what tinfoil hat people complain about.

Unfortunately, giving people the option of doing the right thing also gives people the option to being selfish and ignore the common good.

Then there's the people who refuse to use the app because taking the phone out of the pocket to scan a code is too much and rather have a location track done by a third party app that is in no way connected to a central system and unable to receive notifications in case of an outbreak.

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Oblivian

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#2597203 3-Nov-2020 18:18

debo: People need to stop assuming that the Covid ap is the only way to track one's movement.

It's not assumed that.

But sure as hell be faster to reach you rather than rely on you knowing who/where and bothering to manually go look after a media release rather than a time close to the persons interview

debo

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#2597204 3-Nov-2020 18:20

The Russian fishing crew cases shows the fallacy of using PCR testing for pre flight checks. They need to switch to rapid antigen testing at check in. This would eliminate fraudulent test reports and people that have become infectious since they took the test.
People will still need to do quarantine since there is always the rick they catch it at the airport.

With the Russian fishermen, it will be interesting to know their travel history. I suspect most of the crew will have been on other ships just prior to coming here, which are known breading grounds for the virus. This would explain the high number of cases. There are three versions of the virus so perhaps three separate boat crews came over.

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#2597208 3-Nov-2020 18:28

And a second person in the community tests positive linked to this hotel.

tdgeek

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#2597215 3-Nov-2020 18:43

antonknee:

Oblivian:

<20 scans for them to work off for the exposure period at Countdown.

Say no more.

I really can't understand why people don't do it - it takes seconds. Especially given the grumbling when we went back to levels 2/3 in August.

I get that it's behavioural science, but honestly people. Exasperating.

It is. People are shallow, easy route, least resistance, it's natural.

If its voluntary, low compliance, as Covid in most communities is zero. Make it a small fine and cannot enter, large compliance. People are easy, train them

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#2597217 3-Nov-2020 18:44

wellygary:

Oblivian:

But.. but... but #snowflakes. /It's against my rights/ / privacy!!!!!/ /I rebel!/ /You can't make me!/

Its quite well established that shops/businesses have the legal right to refuse service and ask anyone to leave as long as they are not being discriminated by on a lawful basis.... you can happily boot someone out for not scanning,....

But you won't.

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tdgeek

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#2597219 3-Nov-2020 18:51

debo: The Russian fishing crew cases shows the fallacy of using PCR testing for pre flight checks. They need to switch to rapid antigen testing at check in. This would eliminate fraudulent test reports and people that have become infectious since they took the test.
People will still need to do quarantine since there is always the rick they catch it at the airport.

With the Russian fishermen, it will be interesting to know their travel history. I suspect most of the crew will have been on other ships just prior to coming here, which are known breading grounds for the virus. This would explain the high number of cases. There are three versions of the virus so perhaps three separate boat crews came over.

Is what I bolded 100% accurate?

High number of cases? In NZ Covid is RARE. Take US, Russia, Europe its a cesspool of infection. If we import cases ad they are positive, it doesn't matter if its from Russia or Antarctica, they go through MIQ, flushed out, quarantined, then these guys will be working for our economy.

Its called Management. Another option is NZ turning off the rest of the globe...

rugrat

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#2597223 3-Nov-2020 18:59

What about purpose built facilities , not in major population areas.

Especially for high risk cases like overseas fisherman from high level infected countries.

debo

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#2597237 3-Nov-2020 19:36

tdgeek:
debo: rapid antigen testing at check in. .

Is what I bolded 100% accurate?

Yes. Antigen tests are ideal for detecting infectious people because their viral loads are huge at this point. It is historic and recently recovering people that they struggle to find. These case require the PCR test done with a high CT count. (that is when they have to repeat the duplication part of the test up to 42 times to get enough RNA to be detectable).
The purpose of check in testing is to reduce to likelyhood of spread to front line staff like cabin crew, customs and baggage handlers. It is not intended to prevent covid from coming into the country.

tdgeek

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#2597238 3-Nov-2020 19:37

rugrat: What about purpose built facilities , not in major population areas.

Especially for high risk cases like overseas fisherman from high level infected countries.

100% agree. The issue was we were dealt this card, no playbook, etc. Once it is done, and god knows when that will be globally, the Pandemic Plan for NZ will need to cater for purpose built facilities. Ideally, these will be built/provided for with another use, then rolled into MIQ when the next pandemic arises.

Fred99

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#2597289 3-Nov-2020 20:52

debo: The Russian fishing crew cases shows the fallacy of using PCR testing for pre flight checks. They need to switch to rapid antigen testing at check in. This would eliminate fraudulent test reports and people that have become infectious since they took the test.
People will still need to do quarantine since there is always the rick they catch it at the airport.

With the Russian fishermen, it will be interesting to know their travel history. I suspect most of the crew will have been on other ships just prior to coming here, which are known breading grounds for the virus. This would explain the high number of cases. There are three versions of the virus so perhaps three separate boat crews came over.

Maybe not:

In a head-to-head comparison, researchers at the University of Arizona found that, in symptomatic people, a rapid test made by Quidel could detect more than 80 percent of coronavirus infections found by a slower, lab-based P.C.R. test. But when the rapid test was used instead to randomly screen students and staff members who did not feel sick, it detected only 32 percent of the positive cases identified by the P.C.R. test.

It's not good enough / fit for purpose.

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debo

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#2597302 3-Nov-2020 21:46

Fred99:
[

In a head-to-head comparison, researchers at the University of Arizona found that, in symptomatic people, a rapid test made by Quidel could detect more than 80 percent of coronavirus infections found by a slower, lab-based P.C.R. test. But when the rapid test was used instead to randomly screen students and staff members who did not feel sick, it detected only 32 percent of the positive cases identified by the P.C.R. test.

It's not good enough / fit for purpose.

Rapid antigen testing is useful for detecting infectious people. As I said, it is no good for detecting historical cases. If you are using it to screen out infectious people, then it is fit for purpose. If you are using it to determine if someone has had covid at some point in the past, then it is not fit for purpose. Pre flight testing is only concerned about infectious people. It does not matter if historical cases board a plane.

Fred99

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#2597309 3-Nov-2020 22:32

No - it's not good enough. It's being pushed by airlines and dishonest governments as being capable of doing something when it cannot deliver a "relatively failsafe" gold standard. This pandemic was spread by air travel.

According to the WHO the sensitivity of similar antigen tests for respiratory diseases like the flu ranges between 34% and 80%. "Based on this information, half or more of COVID-19 infected patients might be missed by such tests, depending on the group of patients tested.

It might be "useful" for some purposes but not good enough for pre-flight screening. Pre/asymptomatic patients don't have a high enough viral load for accurate detection of antigens. They can still pass on infection - especially on a longhaul flight.

mattwnz

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#2597331 3-Nov-2020 23:26

Fred99:

No - it's not good enough. It's being pushed by airlines and dishonest governments as being capable of doing something when it cannot deliver a "relatively failsafe" gold standard. This pandemic was spread by air travel.

According to the WHO the sensitivity of similar antigen tests for respiratory diseases like the flu ranges between 34% and 80%. "Based on this information, half or more of COVID-19 infected patients might be missed by such tests, depending on the group of patients tested.

It might be "useful" for some purposes but not good enough for pre-flight screening. Pre/asymptomatic patients don't have a high enough viral load for accurate detection of antigens. They can still pass on infection - especially on a longhaul flight.

I would have thought it would be more accurate if they did a series of tests over a number of days. But the NZ government shouldn't be accepting these tests or reassurances for people coming from highly infectious countries. I discussed this a few weeks ago when the high number of cases were reported for incoming fishermen as I was concerned that it was more likely we may get a leak from such a facility. But the two new community cases surrounding this facility reinforces it, that when there are a high number of people testing positive (rather than all isolating 'properly' for 14 days prior to arriving), that it is a higher risk for people working in that facility and the viral load in the facility will be higher. So PPE maybe less effective. The solution would be for these people to go into the Jetpark, or a specialist quarantine facility like that, or the government being more strict over entry requirements. Let them come in, but reduce the risk to NZers working in these facilities. Whether that be sending someone overseas first to make sure they are all isolating properly for 14 days, prior to departing for NZ. Each time someone tests positive in the community in NZ, the cost to any business in contact with a case is massive

mattwnz

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#2597338 4-Nov-2020 00:29

6 border incursions in 3 months is a sign our systems at the border are failing. 'Our luck is going to run out' . Another lockdown possible if complacency, border 'failures' continue - expert

Something everyone in NZ should watch. Sir David Skegg is New Zealands top Epidemiologist so is someone who should be listened to.

Also goes on to say that double bedding at this facility with these Russian fisherman contravenes the very principles of quarantining. Also concerned no masked need on public transport, and wants weekly testing of all border staff.

How many wakeup calls do we need? Sooner or later our luck is going to run out?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/11/coronavirus-another-lockdown-possible-if-complacency-border-failures-continue-sir-david-skegg.html

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