2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2753437 1-Aug-2021 23:16

A bit off-topic, but I was reading some stuff about religious views to taking the vaccine, of which the Christian one seems to be a fairly consistent "let God guide you", which in practice means "don't take it", based on the sorts of comments you see in response to videos like this Youtube video: "Listen to God’s spirit and you’ll hear Him tell you to change your diet to power up your immune system rather than take a vaccine", "Don’t put your faith in vaccine but instead put your faith in Jesus!", "The best vaccine I depend on: The BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST", "I won't be taking the vaccine. I'm covered by the blood of Jesus", and so on and so on ad nauseum. Not sure how representative those responses are overall, but certainly the advice they're getting from religious leaders is pretty useless because "DYOR" just drives people into the arms of the antivaxxers.

Muslims have it much easier: "Tie your camel and place your trust in Allah" (Jami' at-Tirmidhi, Hadith 2517), pretty much the exact opposite of the advice Christians are getting.

The Jewish version is, as usual, at right angles to both :-), get enough rabbis to OK it and you're fine. In Israel they even got ultra-orthodox rabbis to give it the OK, one of the reasons why Israel has such a high vaccination rate.

(Not wanting to start a religious war here, I was just curious after seeing the Christian advice to see how other faiths approached it).

neb

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#2753438 1-Aug-2021 23:22

elpenguino:
For starters:

Stores that will be able to stay open include supermarkets, grocery stores, butchers, bakeries, fruit and vegetable stores, liquor stores, fishmongers, stores that predominantly sell health, medical, maternity and infant supplies, pharmacies, chemists, petrol stations, car hire, banks, financial institutions, hardware, nurseries, agricultural, regional supplies, pet supplies, post offices, newsagents and office supply stores.

They'd be better off listing the stores that can't stay open:

(I was going to make up a joke list of three random stores to put here, but I can't immediately think of anything that wouldn't fall under the above exception list).

I couldn't even think of three stores that wouldn't be able to open during their, um, "lockdown".

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#2753440 2-Aug-2021 00:17

neb: A bit off-topic, but I was reading some stuff about religious views to taking the vaccine, of which the Christian one seems to be a fairly consistent "let God guide you", which in practice means "don't take it", based on the sorts of comments you see in response to videos like

You're going to get fringe views on YouTube that are not representative of the mainstream. It's a place people go to rant and rave. The supplement stuff sounds like this guy:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/june/jim-bakker-show-covid-cure-lawsuit-silver-missouri.html

Batman

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#2753447 2-Aug-2021 06:56

neb: A bit off-topic, but I was reading some stuff about religious views to taking the vaccine, of which the Christian one seems to be a fairly consistent "let God guide you", which in practice means "don't take it", based on the sorts of comments you see in response to videos like this Youtube video: "Listen to God’s spirit and you’ll hear Him tell you to change your diet to power up your immune system rather than take a vaccine", "Don’t put your faith in vaccine but instead put your faith in Jesus!", "The best vaccine I depend on: The BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST", "I won't be taking the vaccine. I'm covered by the blood of Jesus", and so on and so on ad nauseum. Not sure how representative those responses are overall, but certainly the advice they're getting from religious leaders is pretty useless because "DYOR" just drives people into the arms of the antivaxxers. Muslims have it much easier: "Tie your camel and place your trust in Allah" (Jami' at-Tirmidhi, Hadith 2517), pretty much the exact opposite of the advice Christians are getting. The Jewish version is, as usual, at right angles to both :-), get enough rabbis to OK it and you're fine. In Israel they even got ultra-orthodox rabbis to give it the OK, one of the reasons why Israel has such a high vaccination rate. (Not wanting to start a religious war here, I was just curious after seeing the Christian advice to see how other faiths approached it).

all my christian friends i know world wide either have taken it or are taking it. neighbour is a pastor and he tells me he tells his church to trust science and he ridicules trump, also recalled that my gp is a christian and he's vaccinated.

my vegans mates on the other hand ... they aren't.

do i judge vegans nope.

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#2753455 2-Aug-2021 07:11

Oblivian:

The old 'experts' qualifier again.

You can't expect much from a piece of news.com.au syndicated clickbait.

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#2753471 2-Aug-2021 08:34

Batman:

all my christian friends i know world wide either have taken it or are taking it. neighbour is a pastor and he tells me he tells his church to trust science and he ridicules trump, also recalled that my gp is a christian and he's vaccinated.

This is a good point. American fundamentalists are in a class of their own. They are not representative of christians overall. Most church-goers, even in America, are fairly mainstream and would not have a problem with vaccination on the basis of their religious beliefs. The examples quoted above are extremists.

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#2753478 2-Aug-2021 08:51

Rikkitic:

Batman:

all my christian friends i know world wide either have taken it or are taking it. neighbour is a pastor and he tells me he tells his church to trust science and he ridicules trump, also recalled that my gp is a christian and he's vaccinated.

This is a good point. American fundamentalists are in a class of their own. They are not representative of christians overall. Most church-goers, even in America, are fairly mainstream and would not have a problem with vaccination on the basis of their religious beliefs. The examples quoted above are extremists.

For an example of a more mainstream local view, the Anglican Church in NZ is backing a campaign called "Get One, Give One" (https://givealittle.co.nz/fundraiser/get-one-give-one) that encourages people who have had their free vaccine here to give $10 so that someone in a less well provided for country can get vaccinated too.

The vast majority of Christians are entirely happy to believe that God can heal through the miracle of modern medicine as well as through the supernatural exercise of divine power.

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#2753493 2-Aug-2021 09:12

neb: A bit off-topic, but I was reading some stuff about religious views to taking the vaccine, of which the Christian one seems to be a fairly consistent "let God guide you", which in practice means "don't take it", based on the sorts of comments you see in response to videos like this Youtube video: "Listen to God’s spirit and you’ll hear Him tell you to change your diet to power up your immune system rather than take a vaccine", "Don’t put your faith in vaccine but instead put your faith in Jesus!", "The best vaccine I depend on: The BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST", "I won't be taking the vaccine. I'm covered by the blood of Jesus", and so on and so on ad nauseum. Not sure how representative those responses are overall, but certainly the advice they're getting from religious leaders is pretty useless because "DYOR" just drives people into the arms of the antivaxxers.

Muslims have it much easier: "Tie your camel and place your trust in Allah" (Jami' at-Tirmidhi, Hadith 2517), pretty much the exact opposite of the advice Christians are getting.

The Jewish version is, as usual, at right angles to both :-), get enough rabbis to OK it and you're fine. In Israel they even got ultra-orthodox rabbis to give it the OK, one of the reasons why Israel has such a high vaccination rate.

(Not wanting to start a religious war here, I was just curious after seeing the Christian advice to see how other faiths approached it).

You need to widen your research. Don't base your judgements on some fundamentalist Christian views because it is most certainly not what is happening in mainstream Christianity. Yes, you will find smattering of anti Covid vaccine people among mainstream Christians just like you'll find them in the medical fraternity too. There is the question of religious ethics over how some vaccines are made and for those concerned by this, it applies to any vaccine not just the Covid vaccines. Overall from what I've seen and heard mainstream Christian church leaders have been encouraging their members to be vaccinated. Some like in this article see being vaccinated as their Christian duty to protect their fellow human beings. https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018786357/getting-covid-19-vaccine-is-loving-our-neighbour-christchurch-anglican-bishop

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tieke

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#2753528 2-Aug-2021 10:03

vexxxboy:

Batman:

wow it's going up?

the important one, infectious in the community, is dropping down to 26. If that keeps dropping then they are starting to win the battle.

Unfortunately, unlike the other states, NSW has been very successfully at spinning their media-reported numbers. If it was one of the other states, rather than reporting 239 cases of which "26 cases were infectious in the community", they would have instead stated that of the 239 new cases, 61 had been in the community for at least some of their infectious period, while 98 cases had an unknown isolation status. (This usually later converts to infectious in the community for at least some of the time, as it's pretty easy to let the trackers know if they were in total isolation the entire period).

Berejiklian has been aided by the government-supporting Murdoch press which runs the "26 cases" headlines rather than the "only 80 of the 239 were confirmed to be in isolation throughout their infectious period" headline that they would have run for Victoria. Having NSW's headline "infectious in the community" label not include those who definitely were infectious in the community but have also had at least one day of isolation is definitely a decision made for media management rather than clarity of understanding.

The other obvious thing that NZ and all other Aussie states do that is markedly absent from the NSW press conferences is that they don't report active cases in the press conferences - apparently leading with "There are currently 2,843 active cases in NSW" is not helpful when you want to want to suggest that easing restrictions in a couple of weeks is still a good option.

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#2753544 2-Aug-2021 10:31

Technofreak:
... Yes, you will find smattering of anti Covid vaccine people among mainstream Christians just like you'll find them in the medical fraternity too. There is the question of religious ethics over how some vaccines are made and for those concerned by this, it applies to any vaccine not just the Covid vaccines. Overall from what I've seen and heard mainstream Christian church leaders have been encouraging their members to be vaccinated.

Incidentally I know a christian doctor who formed a group to write a pamphlet debunking this to people who have such concerns. One of the authors is a christian professor of anatomy /biology, who is an evolutionist.

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#2753546 2-Aug-2021 10:34

Here is the text, authored by a group of university professors who are religious, for people who have such questions.

“Is it true that the COVID-19 vaccines contain tissues from aborted foetuses?
The two adenovirus vaccines (from AstraZeneca and J&J) are grown in cell lines that were derived from a single aborted foetus in 1972 (AZ) and 1985 (J&J). Neither foetus was aborted to derive these cell lines. None of the cell lines is present in the purified vaccines.
The Vatican has put out a position statement suggesting that the benefit outweighs any moral harm from the use of these vaccines. Similar views have been expressed by a number of leading evangelical biomedical scientists and theologians.
The RNA vaccines (Pfizer, Moderna) and Novavax’s protein vaccine do not use human cell lines for production; it is the Pfizer vaccine that is currently being made available in NZ.
Even with the AstraZeneca and J&J vaccines, one has to ask whether the benefit far outweighs any perceived moral risk (which is for an event that occurred 4-5 decades ago and had nothing to do with the production of vaccines)."

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#2753553 2-Aug-2021 11:08

Of course there are evangelical/fundie christian groups and churches in NZ - and they're just as screwed in the head as their American counterparts.

Of course they're a minority of the people who claim to be Christian which is a minority anyway these days - thank God, but that's hardly the point. A nutter like Tamaki is a household name in NZ, his brand of religious lunacy is highly successful. Hardly anybody would be able to name the leaders of any of the "mainstream" religions.

We did have a near miss when an evangelical fringe church group in Auckland was the focus of an active cluster - fortunately they came around and cooperated - that was fantastic. A significant issue with the disaster in Fiji is religious nutters, it was the same in Samoa with measles. There was massive kickback from a few churches about limits on numbers at services, banning singing. At this stage organised "groups" of nutters who associate together are a serious risk to everybody else. Be they the alt-right nutters who want to march against lockdowns, fruitarian hippies up the Whanganui river, or religious nutters.

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#2753573 2-Aug-2021 11:32

I didn't know what to make of this yesterday.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-vaccination-rollout-racist-and-upholding-privilege-expert/7GAMOAVT2E3RMPPYATGRXERODQ/

Seem to recall the far north had open walk-ins and invites quite early on in the stage in the fear they would be decimated by a breakout. To the point where they locked out other regions visiting to make use of the offers. There has been jabs offered at numerous Marae and private entities since?.

And there was also the big educational push at pacific/maori churches and organizations to come forward.

Surely if the numbers aren't stacking up, it's far likely the people not taking advantage after the marketing and attempts than exclusion. Think they should be surveying population rather than asking for the confirmed jab rates to prove the point?.

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#2753579 2-Aug-2021 11:41

Fred99:

Of course they're a minority of the people who claim to be Christian which is a minority anyway these days - thank God, but that's hardly the point. A nutter like Tamaki is a household name in NZ, his brand of religious lunacy is highly successful. Hardly anybody would be able to name the leaders of any of the "mainstream" religions.

i'm not sure who has more followers -

the guy above, naturalismists on social media, influencers on the internet, or world class sports personalities

all of the above oppose vaccines.

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#2753584 2-Aug-2021 11:50

tieke: Unfortunately, unlike the other states, NSW has been very successfully at spinning their media-reported numbers ...

As an Australian (from NSW) who has lived in NZ for 40 years, it gives me no pleasure to refer you to this opinion piece.

Worth reading. Reluctantly, I have to agree with every word of it. ...

The Guardian (Australian edition) - Rule-breakers and anti-lockdown marchers are boofheads – but the biggest failure is the government’s (no paywall)

31 July 2021

It’s not surprising to see those who have been making sacrifices turn their white hot anger against politicians ...

Scratch most Australians and you’ll find a conformist. Ingrained iconoclasm, individualism and innate anti-authoritarianism are about as characteristic as that mythical egalitarianism. ...

No. Government systems failures, more than wilful individual disobedience, has been the biggest problem in this crisis so far.

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