EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#2421767 16-Feb-2020 11:36

If you're asking could you charge your EV from a household plug, the answer is yes. It just takes longer.

Note that EV's are rarely completely discharged, "flat", or need a 100% charge the next drive, so some hours even by the slowest method is almost always enough.

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#2421771 16-Feb-2020 11:51

kingdragonfly: If you're asking could you charge your EV from a household plug, the answer is yes. It just takes longer.

Note that EV's are rarely completely discharged, "flat", or need a 100% charge the next drive, so some hours even by the slowest method is almost always enough.

Im aware that fast charging reduces battery life, if I has an EV I'd charge it slow to retain battery as well as we are able to. I assume it doesn't matter if you don't charge to 100%?

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#2421776 16-Feb-2020 12:12

Obraik:
Jase2985:

Random question but are there any 2 phase EV Chargers out there?

As far as I'm aware, two phase anything isn't really a thing in NZ. You either have single or three phase.

What's the context of your question?

2 phase is a thing, there are quiet a few older houses with 2 phase and you are still able to get it from the local lines companies.

context of the question is exactly that, are there any chargers out there that will take a 2 phase connection. or are they pretty much all single and 3 phase ones.

Obraik

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#2421778 16-Feb-2020 12:14

tdgeek:

Im aware that fast charging reduces battery life, if I has an EV I'd charge it slow to retain battery as well as we are able to. I assume it doesn't matter if you don't charge to 100%?

Excessive fast DC charging can be bad for EVs, mostly for those that don't have any active thermal control, like a Leaf. However your home AC charger isn't going to get that high of an output to be a problem - you might only get up to 22kw if you have three phase power and a car that can support that but most will max out at around 11.

I can charge my car at 32a single phase (7kw) however I limit it down to 25a to avoid the risk of blowing the pole fuse. With hot water, the oven and three heatpumps running, I didn't want to bump up too close to the house limit.

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Obraik

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#2421780 16-Feb-2020 12:17

Jase2985:

2 phase is a thing, there are quiet a few older houses with 2 phase and you are still able to get it from the local lines companies.

context of the question is exactly that, are there any chargers out there that will take a 2 phase connection. or are they pretty much all single and 3 phase ones.

I've only ever seen single and three phase chargers

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RunningMan

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#2421812 16-Feb-2020 13:34

Jase2985:[snip]

context of the question is exactly that, are there any chargers out there that will take a 2 phase connection. or are they pretty much all single and 3 phase ones.

Remember that the charger is actually built in to the car itself, so you would need to check the tech specs of a given vehicle to determine if it will accept 2 phase. What people frequently refer to as an EV charger is actually the EVSE (electric vehicle supply equipment). It's basically a device that does 2 things

1) Tell the vehicle charger what power supply is available (i.e. current capacity)

2) Provide some safety interlock so that it isn't live unless connected to an EV.

DC quick chargers are different though - in that case the charger is external to the car.

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#2421816 16-Feb-2020 13:55

Jase2985:

Obraik:
Jase2985:

Random question but are there any 2 phase EV Chargers out there?

As far as I'm aware, two phase anything isn't really a thing in NZ. You either have single or three phase.

What's the context of your question?

2 phase is a thing, there are quiet a few older houses with 2 phase and you are still able to get it from the local lines companies.

context of the question is exactly that, are there any chargers out there that will take a 2 phase connection. or are they pretty much all single and 3 phase ones.

My parents have two phase's. Sometime's a power cut would only impact a single phase.

It is actually fairly common in larger houses that would draw more than your common 63A/80A pole fuse can provide, so a second feed is put in off a different phase.

Relatively few appliances are set up to take two phase of input. An example I can think of is our 60cm induction cook-top. You can either feed the entire unit with 32A, or remove the electrical bridge between the left hand side and right hand side with separate 16A phases. It is connecting phase to neutral, known as "star" configuration.

Some cheaper "3-phase" welders only actually use two of the three phases, using phase-phase power rather than phase to neutral to get a higher voltage (cira 400v, rather than 230v). Connecting phase - phase is known as a delta configeration.

As to why somebody would want to charge there EV with two phases, there are very limited situations where this would be of value:

You have a two phase connection at home, and cannot provision more than 16A per phase due to other loads. If you could feed 2 16A feeds to one EV, you would get 7kW charging rather than 3.6kW
You have an EV (such as the mercadies B class electric, or some single charger tesla model s) is only capable of charging at around 16A per phase, so a half of of a 32A single phase connection cannot be used.

Both of these situations are fairly rare - In the first generally some other loads could be moved between phases to balance a 32A single phase charger.

In the second case, such cars are quite rare. Cars like the current BMW i3 are capable of either 3x16A charging or 1x32A charging (essential has the gear built in to allocate two 16A chargers to a single phase). Other EV's such as the current Kona only support single phase charging.

I should note that the below cables exist, targeted at older Tesla's. Essentially it feeds a single phase into multiple pin on the three phase connector, letting the car use multiple of it's built in charger's

https://www.evolutionaustralia.com.au/product-page/type-1-j1772-to-type-2-mennekes-tesla-converter-adaptor-cable-1m

I havn't recently looked into the current restriction com's protocol, but there is the potential for one of these to overload the feed. I.e. wall mounted EVSE is configured to send a "10A Max" signal to the car, and the car draws 10A from what it thinks are three separate phases, resulting in a 30A draw on the single phase feed that is sized for 10A... Also has the potential to overload neutral wiring, on the three phase (car) side, as it will be sized to carry only the max that the car can draw from a single phase...

Potentially one could hook up only two out of three phases in a three phase EVSE and see if it works, That shouldn't damage or overload anything (I think as a non-electrician). But either the car or the EVSE might refuse to connect because of the dead leg.

That said, it is getting pretty unusual / unsupported, and most EV's in NZ are capable of charging in a respectable time from a single phase connection, so the gains would be fairly small.

RunningMan

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#2421820 16-Feb-2020 14:03

Scott3:[snip] Cars like the current BMW i3 are capable of either 3x16A charging or 1x32A charging

Pretty sure the M3 Tesla is the same. Max 11kW (3 phase 16 amp) but will charge at 7kW (1 phase 32 amp).

Obraik

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#2421822 16-Feb-2020 14:08

RunningMan:
Scott3:[snip] Cars like the current BMW i3 are capable of either 3x16A charging or 1x32A charging

Pretty sure the M3 Tesla is the same. Max 11kW (3 phase 16 amp) but will charge at 7kW (1 phase 32 amp).

Yes, I can charge my Model 3 on my single phase 32a circuit at 7kW

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Scott3

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#2421841 16-Feb-2020 15:28

RunningMan:

Scott3:[snip] Cars like the current BMW i3 are capable of either 3x16A charging or 1x32A charging

Pretty sure the M3 Tesla is the same. Max 11kW (3 phase 16 amp) but will charge at 7kW (1 phase 32 amp).

On re-reading, my wording is confusing. For benefit of other readers, the current i3 (excluding ex japan which is single phase only) is capable of both those charging modes.

Thanks up for the heads up regarding the Tesla model 3. It great this functionality (the ability to use 32A a single phase connection) is included standard. Gives great flexibility, and only costs the manufacturer a couple of extra relays. It must be a pretty short list of cars that can charge at 3x16A but not 32A single phase.

kingdragonfly

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#2421861 16-Feb-2020 16:51

Which Automakers Can Seriously Challenge Tesla?

Several major automakers are making big bets on electric vehicles. A few vehicles have been released so far, but sales indicate any one of them has failed to make a significant dent in Tesla’s share of the EV market. So, who are they? And how much of a chance do they have?

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#2421896 16-Feb-2020 19:02

kingdragonfly: Which Automakers Can Seriously Challenge Tesla?

Several major automakers are making big bets on electric vehicles. A few vehicles have been released so far, but sales indicate any one of them has failed to make a significant dent in Tesla’s share of the EV market. So, who are they? And how much of a chance do they have?

Interesting video. Clearly Tesla is the Apple of cars. [compliment] In the US it rivals other ICE cars for price, but it doesnt here. IMHO the next two years when regular car manufactures release EV's will tell the story. At 75k, Tesla isnt the people's car, the car that will reduce emissions. Even in the US the EV share is minimal. If China and India go hard out thats where emissions decreasing is worth talking about. So maybe 2 years to see where it all settles. Top brand cars, and mid brand, see where the dust settles.

Obraik

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#2421937 16-Feb-2020 19:36

tdgeek:

Interesting video. Clearly Tesla is the Apple of cars. [compliment] In the US it rivals other ICE cars for price, but it doesnt here. IMHO the next two years when regular car manufactures release EV's will tell the story. At 75k, Tesla isnt the people's car, the car that will reduce emissions. Even in the US the EV share is minimal. If China and India go hard out thats where emissions decreasing is worth talking about. So maybe 2 years to see where it all settles. Top brand cars, and mid brand, see where the dust settles.

The Model 3 is a competitor to the BMW 3 Series and Audi A4.

Here in New Zealand since it first started selling the Model 3 has been outselling the 3 Series and A4 (none) each month

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DS248

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#2422000 16-Feb-2020 22:56

Obraik: ... As far as I'm aware, two phase anything isn't really a thing in NZ. You either have single or three phase. ...

As others have replied, yes "two-phase" (my quotes) is a 'thing' in NZ. Our house (~1974++, peri-urban) has a "two-phase" supply. Two-phase electric cable is also available. When we wired for recently installed induction cook top we had the option of using either 40 amp 'single-phase' cable or 'two-phase' cable with four wires; phase1, phase2 (32 amp each), neutral, and earth. From recollection the latter would have worked out slightly cheaper but was mentioned a bit late in the piece by the electrician so we continued with the 40 amp 'single-phase' option.

Re the quotes ("two-phase"): I gather that what we have in NZ is not strictly '2-phase' supply but rather two phases of a 3-phase supply. The two phases are out of sync by 120 degrees. At least in the early 20th-century in the US, two-phase referred to electric systems with a 90° phase difference. That has the advantage of constant combined power.

Some discussion in these links

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power

https://www.electricalforum.co.nz/index.php?action=more_details&id=1536878531

Scott3

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#2422003 16-Feb-2020 23:46

DS248:

As others have replied, yes "two-phase" (my quotes) is a 'thing' in NZ. Our house (~1974++, peri-urban) has a "two-phase" supply. Two-phase electric cable is also available. When we wired for recently installed induction cook top we had the option of using either 40 amp 'single-phase' cable or 'two-phase' cable with four wires; phase1, phase2 (32 amp each), neutral, and earth. From recollection the latter would have worked out slightly cheaper but was mentioned a bit late in the piece by the electrician so we continued with the 40 amp 'single-phase' option.

Re the quotes ("two-phase"): I gather that what we have in NZ is not strictly '2-phase' supply but rather two phases of a 3-phase supply. The two phases are out of sync by 120 degrees. At least in the early 20th-century in the US, two-phase referred to electric systems with a 90° phase difference. That has the advantage of constant combined power.

Some discussion in these links

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power

https://www.electricalforum.co.nz/index.php?action=more_details&id=1536878531

Yip. That's the same setup as in my parents house. Size of house at time of build (cira 1995) meant it needed more power than a standard 63A/80A single phase feed would provide, so they ran a second wire, connected to a second phase... Probably better for phase balance than having 200A single phase connections etc...

Apparently three phase was going to be super expensive with that lines company as they view that as a commercial service. Pity, I would have liked 3 phase, and other lines companies make it available at a reasonable connection cost.

With things like the cooktop, it doesn't care what the phase rotation etc is, as, unlike say an induction motor, each side is simply connecting the phase it is linked with to neutral.

Unlike a three phase induction motor, there is no advantage to running such an appliance on a single or multiple phases (aside from matching available wiring & electrical capacity).

With regards to the EV, I would just put a 32A single phase charger on the opposite phase to the cooktop. Generally you need to go three phase to go beyond 7kW home charging (so nothing to be gained by hooking up two phases), and generally 7kW is considered sufficient for today's EV's. Generally will add about 400km of range in the 8hours you are asleep.

Did you have your eye on a particular EV?

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