EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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#3070100 1-May-2023 16:51

There should be no subsidies IMO for EV cars regardless of the price bracket. The subsidy is only helping the rich get cars cheaper. The average joe does not have up to $79,999 available to be able to afford an EV. People will buy an EV regardless of whether they can afford it due to rising fuel costs or care about the environment. Subsidies should be handed out for public transportation and ebikes. Minimum wage workers can barely afford $10k cars. Give people the means to reduce congestion and encourage public transport and ebikes. EV's do not reduce traffic congestion or help anyone earning minimum wage.

Do whatever you want to do man.

Mehrts

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#3070103 1-May-2023 16:55

The incentive is to increase the number of new vehicle sales now, which in the future leads to more second hand vehicles that are up for grabs for those that can't afford new.

It's a long-term goal which will take a few years to fully come to fruition.

Geektastic

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#3070105 1-May-2023 17:02

Spotted this in today’s Daily Telegraph:

“Sweden has announced plans to build the world’s first electrified motorway, allowing electric cars to charge themselves as they pass along its surface.

The e-motorway, which is due to be completed in about two years, is part of wider efforts by Sweden to decarbonise the transport sector in response to a new EU law that requires new cars to have zero CO2 emissions from 2035.

A major benefit of the road could be sparing electric vehicle users the annoyance of having to locate and wait at charging stations, as in theory the road can provide all the required power.”

Note in particular - announced today and completed in just two years…!

billgates

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#3070107 1-May-2023 17:05

or incentivize and invest heavily in public transport from get go. better late than never. The half price public transport popularity is a clear example of if you spend $ on public transport and charge accordingly, people will come. Public transport and ebike subsidies do not have to turn a profit just like public hospitals, police, fire department and many other public services. An ebike will provide a healthy both physically and mental lifestyle to the public in the long term. An EV is not going to do anything for public health. Minimum wage earners will never see less than 40% SOH battery secondhand EV car in their lifetime.

Less cars = less congestion on the road

Less congestion on the road = Less maintenance required for roads

Less congestion on the road = Less car and pedestrian accidents

Less car and pedestrian accidents = Less resources required for police, ambulance, fire, hospitals, doctors, nurses

EV subsidies = making rich people richer.

Do whatever you want to do man.

Dingbatt

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#3070117 1-May-2023 17:34

billgates:

There should be no subsidies IMO for EV cars regardless of the price bracket. The subsidy is only helping the rich get cars cheaper………………….

My opinion is completely the opposite of this (isn’t it great people can have differing opinions on GZ?). I don’t believe there should be a cap on the amount spent* to qualify for the rebate.

If the goal is to replace internal combustion vehicles with electric ones, then it doesn’t matter if it is a $30K LEAF or a $300K Taycan. Both are EVs. In the case of my Model 3, I paid more in GST than I got back in rebate.

Using the “subsidise the rich” trope is just invoking the politics of envy. Maybe I’m an outlier, but I didn’t buy my EV to save money, or the world. I wanted to try life with an EV and the rebate very much brought the price down to where I was willing to accept the gamble.

* The only benefit to having a cap is it encourages most companies to supply at least one model <$80K.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

SaltyNZ

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#3070123 1-May-2023 18:18

billgates:

The average joe does not have up to $79,999 available to be able to afford an EV.

Plenty of these on the road though.

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

SaltyNZ

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#3070125 1-May-2023 18:24

billgates:

EV subsidies = making rich people richer.

Literally the only handout this "rich" person ever got. Too rich to get any benefits, too poor to earn all my income from untaxed captial gains.

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#3070128 1-May-2023 18:36

billgates:

EV subsidies = making rich people richer.

an announcement that changes to the scheme will be announced tomorrow

(saw a TV screenshot on FB EV group .... so i don't know anything else. wait till tomorrow i guess?)

HarmLessSolutions

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#3070129 1-May-2023 18:41

billgates:

The average joe does not have up to $79,999 available to be able to afford an EV.

Banks are offering very low interest loans for ecocentric purchases including EVs with the repayments going a long way towards being offset by savings gained by reduced energy costs. There are very few 'cash buyers' out there for any new vehicle purchase, especially EVs.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

RunningMan

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#3070131 1-May-2023 18:49

billgates: The half price public transport popularity is a clear example of if you spend $ on public transport and charge accordingly, people will come.

That's not quite the full story from the review though.

Around 7%-8% of New Zealanders made PT journeys in this period that they otherwise wouldn’t have taken. This equates to a third of those who are using the network.
For the most part, new journeys were for work purposes, reflecting usual journey purposes recorded for PT. However, where completely new journeys are added, these appear to be one-off or infrequent trips, rather than a new, regular journey being added to weekly travel....

For those still not trialling PT services, price hasn’t been the main barrier since 2019. Non-users think of PT services as unrealistic alternatives for travel, since they are not available in their area, are not realistic for the distance that they need to travel or are going to take too long.
With these barriers unresolved, half-price fares won’t be sufficient to make them trial services, limiting the impact HPFs can have. Availability issues plus disrupted services risk putting a ceiling on HPF benefits, for example if delays and cancellations lead trialists to assess bus or train services that they wanted to test out as infeasible

D1023319

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#3070134 1-May-2023 19:07

billgates:

Give people the means to reduce congestion and encourage public transport and ebikes.

Please provide a source that shows how ebikes (or cycling for that matter) reduces congestion?
I ask because how do you know that ebikes and cyclists were previously driving vehicles and were not using pubic transport?
Hence their use undermines the PT for all

billgates

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#3070139 1-May-2023 19:47

RunningMan:

That's not quite the full story from the review though.

If you read the review, the recommendations, COVID and other holdbacks etc are well defined. We need more buses, more trains, more cycleways.

Waka Kotahi concludes half-price fares not enough to lure more public transport users | RNZ News

Many considered the bus an "unrealistic alternative", as it was not close by or the journey would take too long.

Infrequent and cancelled services risked putting new users off altogether.

Waka Kotahi noted numbers might still be impacted by people choosing to work from home, which become more common since the pandemic.

Fuel prices had fallen since the roll out of half-price fares.

Therefore, people trialling the bus who had not experienced sufficient other benefits "could have more reasons to bring their public transport trial to an end", the report said.

The Free Fares Campaign spokesperson Hana Pilkinton-Ching said people might be more likely to make the switch if they knew fares would stay low.

Among all New Zealanders, between three and four percent cited half-price fares as their reason for switching to public transport from private cars.

Pilkinton-Ching said it was great to see this amount of change with such a simple policy.

"We see this as such an easy win," she said. "Really we're not even needing to change the infrastructure hugely, but we're already having this mode shift for 200,000 Kiwis."

However, it did need to come hand-in-hand with other improvements.

"Public transport just needs to be better funded across the board, and that is both for fare reductions, but also to improve frequency and reliability of services."

A spokesperson for Transport Minister Michael Wood said the half-price fares provided extra cost of living support at a time families and businesses needed it most.

To encourage more people on to public transport, the government was also focusing on building services and improving their reliability. It was investing an extra $61 million on lifting bus driver pay and conditions, reforming the Public Transport Operating Model, and delivering a record investment in new bus and public transport infrastructure, the spokesperson said in a statement.

Do whatever you want to do man.

billgates

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#3070151 1-May-2023 19:57

D1023319:

Please provide a source that shows how ebikes (or cycling for that matter) reduces congestion?
I ask because how do you know that ebikes and cyclists were previously driving vehicles and were not using pubic transport?
Hence their use undermines the PT for all

Source? Below is a photo of Amsterdam in 1970's before their cycling revolution. I bring ebike into equation of subsidies because unlike Amsterdam, which was built flat, most of NZ is not and the ebike flattens the roads.

Amsterdam Shifted from Cars to Bikes, How Can Other Cities Follow? - INKspire

Do whatever you want to do man.

everettpsycho

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#3070155 1-May-2023 20:08

billgates:
. Minimum wage earners will never see less than 40% SOH battery secondhand EV car in their lifetime.

We are still very much in the infancy if EVs and this means two things that are changing fast. Not all cars have Nissan leaf levels of battery degredation, new models are not degrading anywhere near as fast as the leafs did so it's likely that 40% will potentially never be reached as the car will outlast the battery.

Secondly the entry level is coming down and the Chinese brands have ignited a price war. It wasn't king ago that other than a Tesla you were stuck with short range cars for a lot of money, the likes of mg, byd and ora selling new at under $50k is pushing second hand values down with what was a $35k car this time last year now available at $25k, once those Chinese cars hit the second hand market I can't see how the current cheapest EVs will retain mmtheir value at all.

The rebates definitely doing it's job, there's a sizeable increase in the EVs in the road that are all now part of the NZ fleet and will be sold on to the next person. People forget they also payout smaller rebates in second hand vehicles being imported which is where all the leafs have come from. Most of us are paying them off with the fuel savings and based on my mileage mine will pay for itself in just over 2 years of driving it. Any money I get back for it after that period is a bonus to me as the car will have been free compared to running any petrol vehicle. What's funny is there's a lot of households running two cars and a 60% 24kwh lead would actually be perfectly fine to replace one of them and can be had at a good price.

MarkH67

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#3070180 1-May-2023 21:33

billgates:
or incentivize and invest heavily in public transport from get go. better late than never. The half price public transport popularity is a clear example of if you spend $ on public transport and charge accordingly, people will come. Public transport and ebike subsidies do not have to turn a profit just like public hospitals, police, fire department and many other public services. An ebike will provide a healthy both physically and mental lifestyle to the public in the long term. An EV is not going to do anything for public health. Minimum wage earners will never see less than 40% SOH battery secondhand EV car in their lifetime.

Less cars = less congestion on the road

Less congestion on the road = Less maintenance required for roads

Less congestion on the road = Less car and pedestrian accidents

Less car and pedestrian accidents = Less resources required for police, ambulance, fire, hospitals, doctors, nurses

EV subsidies = making rich people richer.

I completely support the idea of encouraging public transport and micro-mobility - these things are beneficial and a very good idea. But, what about for those that don't have the option? Until last year I spent ~9 years with a work commute of 36km each way (mostly on 100kph roads) with no public transport option and even if 90% of the population started using public transport it would still not have opened up the option for me (there will NEVER be a bus from Morrinsville to Cambridge at 2am).

There was no subsidy available at the time, but I managed to get a 2nd hand Japanese import Nissan Leaf and I used that for my commute for ~5 years. There are many people that have always used fossil fuel burning transport and have never tried driving an EV, we need to encourage them to try switching to EVs so they can appreciate how good they are. I sold the Leaf when I moved closer to work and no longer needed it for commuting, but I really enjoyed driving that Leaf, way better than an equivalent fossil fuel burner! We need to encourage more EV usage and that includes increasing the 2nd hand market because there are many NZers that NEVER buy new cars. Sure, encourage public transport for all that have that as a viable option and micro-mobility for anyone that would work for them. But there are a lot of NZers that you won't convince to ride a bike and have literally no public transport option available to them - no everyone lives in a city with a bus service.

We really need to encourage people to consider greener options for travel:
Travel less if not necessary
Use public transport if possible
Consider micro-mobility options
For short distances consider walking
Look into car-pooling - it could surely work for some
Consider tele-commuting
Look at a 4-day working week to reduce commuting by 20%
Replace fossil fuel burning vehicles with EVs, especially good in countries like NZ with so much green electricity

Just focussing on one or two of the things listed is foolish, we should be looking at as many possible improvements as we can to get our CO2 emmissions down. Norway has proved that incentives for EV use are effective and they have been a LOT more generous than NZ. Here the government makes money on EV sales, even after giving out the subsidy.

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