EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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20141 posts

Uber Geek

#3100706 6-Jul-2023 17:57

Azzura:
Well...if they make it too expensive to run my PHEV on EV vs Petrol....I guess ...I just won't plug it in anymore.

Wouldn't it be based on the vehicles ability to be plugged in? PHEVs are problematic when it comes to EV RUCs , especially low range ones such as the Mazda CX60 where you are likely going to get doubled charged as soon as you exceed the EV range in a trip. IMO if they have a range of less than 100km, they should be excluded from RUCs as the life range will only decrease from there.

mattwnz

20141 posts

Uber Geek

#3100707 6-Jul-2023 18:00

tdgeek:
Azzura:

Time will tell...a lot of cabbies drive hybrids though.

Yep, it needs to be simple. No need to reinvent the wheel, many diesel users already use that wheel. Down the track lets refine it, but what we need already exists.

I contacted my Ranger owning mate today. Buy RUC online or at AA. Its a trust system, so at WOF time if you abuse RUC mileage, no issue. Pulled up by Mr Plod, thats an issue. Buying RUC online? We do HEAPS online now, no issue. Not into that, pop to the AA as I will do soon for a DL renewal.

But most hybrids are not plug in hybrids and generate power from the petrol engine. I understand as soon as it had the ability to be plugged in to allow it to charge a battery, that is what triggers it being an EV in terms of RUCs.

tdgeek

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#3100710 6-Jul-2023 18:08

mattwnz:

But most hybrids are not plug in hybrids and generate power from the petrol engine. I understand as soon as it had the ability to be plugged in to allow it to charge a battery, that is what triggers it being an EV in terms of RUCs.

I agree. There isnt a level playing field. But if its based on mileage, that is a level playing field. Slightly annoying to me who has 2 ICE and one ICE motorbike, but its fair. Many of us have to pay bills. You can pay on the day, or by internet banking to spread the load and convenience. RUC is no different. Its JUST a utility.

tdgeek

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#3100711 6-Jul-2023 18:09

mattwnz: But most hybrids are not plug in hybrids and generate power from the petrol engine. I understand as soon as it had the ability to be plugged in to allow it to charge a battery, that is what triggers it being an EV in terms of RUCs.

Not sure on that but it doesnt matter. Mileage solves it

HarmLessSolutions

969 posts

Ultimate Geek

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#3100714 6-Jul-2023 18:18

mattwnz:

But most hybrids are not plug in hybrids and generate power from the petrol engine. I understand as soon as it had the ability to be plugged in to allow it to charge a battery, that is what triggers it being an EV in terms of RUCs.

The method that is adopted in order to fairly deal with the PHEV situation will dictate how the rest of the country's vehicle fleet will be charged RUCs. If PHEVs are taxed on a per km basis then it opens the door to rolling this out over the entire fleet. The opportunity for a major rebuild of the RUC system to address existing complications such as non-road used petrol, a fraud prone distance recording regime and the administrative load involved in payment so what better opportunity to tidy house.

Add to that the ability to charge based on location (congestion tax), precisely monitor traffic volumes, tailor the rates by energy (fuel) used, weight and ICE engine size must also be appealing. All it would take is a OBD dongle added to most vehicles, or a dash top unit to older vehicles, to implement such a system with automatic charging/payment as part of it. And keep in mind that RUCs are a road usage charge so how much fuel you use shouldn't allow you to effectively discount the rate.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

tdgeek

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#3100720 6-Jul-2023 18:49

HarmLessSolutions:

mattwnz:

But most hybrids are not plug in hybrids and generate power from the petrol engine. I understand as soon as it had the ability to be plugged in to allow it to charge a battery, that is what triggers it being an EV in terms of RUCs.

The method that is adopted in order to fairly deal with the PHEV situation will dictate how the rest of the country's vehicle fleet will be charged RUCs. If PHEVs are taxed on a per km basis then it opens the door to rolling this out over the entire fleet. The opportunity for a major rebuild of the RUC system to address existing complications such as non-road used petrol, a fraud prone distance recording regime and the administrative load involved in payment so what better opportunity to tidy house.

Add to that the ability to charge based on location (congestion tax), precisely monitor traffic volumes, tailor the rates by energy (fuel) used, weight and ICE engine size must also be appealing. All it would take is a OBD dongle added to most vehicles, or a dash top unit to older vehicles, to implement such a system with automatic charging/payment as part of it. And keep in mind that RUCs are a road usage charge so how much fuel you use shouldn't allow you to effectively discount the rate.

Thats too much. Too many vehicles. We already have a system that works day to day. Yes, tech refinements will be great but there aretooc many vehicles to retrofit them, so we add them over time. Right now, we have a system, use it

gzt

17104 posts

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#3100721 6-Jul-2023 18:51

Batman: so i'm thinking if you remove RUC from petrol tax and bill separately it will benefit my gas guzzler that drinks petrol like no tomorrow.

because the point of this EV exercise is co2 it will make sense to have a carbon component in petrol excise to reflect that.

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gzt

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#3100722 6-Jul-2023 18:55

HarmLessSolutions: A distance based RUC system for all road vehicles would seem to be the most elegant solution to the present and upcoming complications in its implementation, and preferably GPS monitored for ease of recording, prevention of fraud and administrative simplicity and automation.

In contrast to popular belief that is exactly do-able while preserving privacy and data integrity. Will it be specified or implemented that way? It's an open question.

tdgeek

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#3100723 6-Jul-2023 18:57

gzt:
Batman: so i'm thinking if you remove RUC from petrol tax and bill separately it will benefit my gas guzzler that drinks petrol like no tomorrow.

because the point of this EV exercise is co2 it will make sense to have a carbon component in petrol excise to reflect that.

@batman

Your RUC will be there, in force, just on another bill

everettpsycho

614 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3100749 6-Jul-2023 20:28

The more I think about the phev problem the more I think ruc for all is the way to go. Considering this apparently change is less than 9 months and one election away with no confirmation of how it will work I don't foresee any technologies being implemented beyond the get a second slip in your windscreen and have it checked at wof time or if you get pulled over. Going the gps route will add huge overheads with supplying the equipment, the remote connection to that equipment then the computing overhead to monitor millions of vehicles. No doubt some will just unplug their device.

Also considering it's 9 months and could significantly change the majority of drivers method of paying road tax that has been how it is forever surely they need to confirm it and start communicating and pushing it soon if it's to happen in April so all the petrol engine owners will know. Even if it started now you can bet some will just think their petrols suddenly got very cheap.

mudguard

2113 posts

Uber Geek

#3100751 6-Jul-2023 20:41

I wonder if RUCS for PHEV were based on weight (maybe like all vehicles will be), size of battery and perhaps fuel tank?

I guess the gist would be if the PHEV had a very small battery chances are you may drive and use mostly petrol, or vice versa, a larger battery would suggest you do more driving on pure electric and therefore had a lower RUC charge?

I don't know, I honestly think RUCS is a PIA compared to having it in the fuel paid for then and there. But there is probably no way of including it in an electric price.

HarmLessSolutions

969 posts

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#3100754 6-Jul-2023 20:45

mudguard:

.....

I don't know, I honestly think RUCS is a PIA compared to having it in the fuel paid for then and there. But there is probably no way of including it in an electric price.

If they can manage to factor it into electricity price PV installations will go ballistic!

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

mudguard

2113 posts

Uber Geek

#3100763 6-Jul-2023 21:16

HarmLessSolutions:

mudguard:

.....

I don't know, I honestly think RUCS is a PIA compared to having it in the fuel paid for then and there. But there is probably no way of including it in an electric price.

If they can manage to factor it into electricity price PV installations will go ballistic!

Ah good point! Kind of gets around the road use nicely. I hadn't thought of that.

everettpsycho

614 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3100768 6-Jul-2023 21:35

I can't see how they can, even with a smart wall charger if they tried to bill my usage from that I'd just dig out the old granny charger to use and save the wallboxes for if I needed faster charging, a granny charger would suffice for our mileage but we got the chargers for convenience that it's plug in both cars and it doesn't trip the breakers from overloading.

In other non ruc news, the ora good cat has had $2k knocked off it's price and is currently the cheapest ev until the mg4 arrives at $47,990 before the rebate. Lucky Aussies had $4000 knocked off their price to try and compete with the mg and byd dolphin.

Scott3

3963 posts

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#3100786 6-Jul-2023 22:49

mattwnz:

But most hybrids are not plug in hybrids and generate power from the petrol engine. I understand as soon as it had the ability to be plugged in to allow it to charge a battery, that is what triggers it being an EV in terms of RUCs.

Yes, non plug in (petrol) hybrids are solely powered by a fuel taxed at source (petrol), so do not trigger RUC's.

Cars that (partially or fully) use fuel's not taxed at source need to pay RUC's per KM. This includes:

Diesel
Diesel hybrids, like the recently announced Hilux mild hybrid
Hydrogen
Waste Veggie oil / Homebrew fuel etc
EV's & PHEV's (beyond the temporary exemption)
Anything over 3500Kg GVM

Vehicles that have to pay RUC, but also burn petrol are allowed to claim back their petrol tax (via the MR70 form). Around 80c/L

One of the more common examples of this is USA soured larger motorhomes, like the below:

HarmLessSolutions:

The method that is adopted in order to fairly deal with the PHEV situation will dictate how the rest of the country's vehicle fleet will be charged RUCs. If PHEVs are taxed on a per km basis then it opens the door to rolling this out over the entire fleet. The opportunity for a major rebuild of the RUC system to address existing complications such as non-road used petrol, a fraud prone distance recording regime and the administrative load involved in payment so what better opportunity to tidy house.

Add to that the ability to charge based on location (congestion tax), precisely monitor traffic volumes, tailor the rates by energy (fuel) used, weight and ICE engine size must also be appealing. All it would take is a OBD dongle added to most vehicles, or a dash top unit to older vehicles, to implement such a system with automatic charging/payment as part of it. And keep in mind that RUCs are a road usage charge so how much fuel you use shouldn't allow you to effectively discount the rate.

If the EV RUC exemption is let to expire, PHEV's will need to pay RUC, and will be eligible to claim back petrol tax as per the USA sourced motor-home in the photo above.

Objectively the fairest way too do it, but given how popular PHEV's are it might require too much admin effort to review and process all those fuel receipts...

You are correct that it is the perfect time to re-structure our road tax system, and to gain efficiencies by incorporating stuff like congestion charging. And would be a prime way to correct historic inequities in the system, like ultra efficiency non-plug-in hybrid owners getting a great deal, and those with petrol recreational boats, and who do heavy towing with a petrol car getting a raw deal.

But sadly I don't forsee it happening, those historically advantaged (i.e. the taxi industry stacked with toyota hybrids) will scream blue murder, while those having their historic disadvantage corrected (petrol engine boat owners, v8 petrol car & SUV owners), will keep their mouths shut... so to politically risky.

On charging based on stuff like energy use, weight, ICE engine size.

I note that RUC's already charge by weight. 0- 3.5T is one band. Essentially in this weight band you are doing negligible road damage, so are largely just paying for your space on the roads. (the next band above is very similar in price too). So I don't think there is a basis for further weight bands. And I don't think energy use or ICE engine size is really relevant to paying for the roads either. (and emissions are already covered via the ETS).

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