VW - busted!

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#1394367 25-Sep-2015 13:20

lxsw20:
Fred99:
MikeB4:
Fred99:
MikeB4:
pdath:
MikeB4: The reality is the here we know very little and everything is speculation. This whole thing will take years to sort out .
INMHO the US would be better served addressing their energy and financial institutions

What do you mean by that? VW has come out and admitted it. There is a detailed research project on the issue. The EPA have publicly announced it. What speculation is there?

The details, intent, next steps etc etc etc

Oh you are kidding surely about the "intent".
The intent was to make money by knowingly breaking the law.

That is to be determined by Courts if it gets there.

You seem intent on suggesting that there's doubt that it was a deliberate act. It was a deliberate act.
You don't need a court to determine if profit was the motive. Suggest an alternative motive if you can think of one - I'll listen.

There's no "if it gets there" (to court). It is going to court.

I would think they will settle before it gets to court.

Settle what? One of the many of the class actions suits already filed, the multiple criminal charges, the charges for breach of emissions regs filed by a whole pile of countries etc? All of them?
You're dreaming - this will be clogging the court system around the world for years.

lxsw20

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#1394373 25-Sep-2015 13:23

OK man, you seem pretty passionate about this or have knowledge that no one else seems to...or a time machine.

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#1394377 25-Sep-2015 13:29

Fred99:
joker97: Is there an article that explains what VW did exactly? I'm interested.

Eg if the law says no motors on bikes and you put a motor on a bike and win the tour de France, vs
the law says you need to weigh your bike and you didn't weight your bike and it was over by 1g when weighed eventually

they are a bit different, though both are guilty, and both will be stripped of the title.

This article seems to be reasonably concise although not completely up to date.

Thanks - I have found it too.

So AFAIK, a European clean guy decided to test VW cars, and a BMW, in EUrope.

Found that emissions (didn't say CO2 or NO2) were very high in the real world. Thought they were different to the US ones. So tested US ones. Found the same, and NO2 much worse than CO2, but both higher than claimed.

Then notified the car authorities who did real world tests on those VW models. VW kept coming out with reasons, denials, recalls for "software patches". After a few years, the authorities wouldn't certify the 2016 VW (& Audi) models. Then VW admitted defeat software.

AFAIK the NO2 is the main problem, but also CO2 but lower. AFAIK these are for diesels. AFAIK, they are now going to test all diesels of all brands.

Watch this space!

Technofreak

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#1394383 25-Sep-2015 13:37

It's the start to the end of diesels in cars I'd say. I's suggest there's other manufacturers who've been "playing the game" but not caught out - Yet.

From what I can tell the motor industry has been struggling to make a diesel motor car engine that has good performance and still meet emission standards.

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Fred99

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#1394386 25-Sep-2015 13:41

lxsw20: OK man, you seem pretty passionate about this or have knowledge that no one else seems to...or a time machine.

You're right. I am passionate about it. I'm like that - I'm a geek. I like to learn how things work. I despise fraud and corruption. VW/Audi deliberately defrauded at least 11 million customers, sabotaged the environment, and deliberately breached environmental protection legislation in place in many countries. It wasn't "negligence" - it was deliberate. It wasn't "isolated" - it was global.
The last thing I want to see is a collective shoulder shrug and these criminals slapped with a wet bus ticket - thus sending a message out that "anything goes".

lxsw20

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#1394389 25-Sep-2015 13:45

Ok then.

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#1394394 25-Sep-2015 13:53

Fred99

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#1394410 25-Sep-2015 14:19

Technofreak: It's the start to the end of diesels in cars I'd say. I's suggest there's other manufacturers who've been "playing the game" but not caught out - Yet.

From what I can tell the motor industry has been struggling to make a diesel motor car engine that has good performance and still meet emission standards.

It's almost certain that "cycle-beating" is widespread as part of "playing the game" - but not using the "defeat device". Information about BMW isn't consistent, some reports saying they exceed NOx by 10x the limit in some tests, others saying they're fine. They've stated categorically that they don't use defeat devices - given that they know they're going to be investigated anyway, I expect they're telling the truth.
That their shares are getting hammered is probably more to do with how much of their production is diesel, and the probable impact of what VAG did on diesel car sales globally - not just to their own (now disreputable) brand.

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#1394414 25-Sep-2015 14:24

Technofreak: It's the start to the end of diesels in cars I'd say. I's suggest there's other manufacturers who've been "playing the game" but not caught out - Yet.

From what I can tell the motor industry has been struggling to make a diesel motor car engine that has good performance and still meet emission standards.

Most Euros are Diesel heavy.

The rise of the Japanese? (other than Mazda)

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#1394423 25-Sep-2015 14:35

There are two parallel legal tracks to this.
1. EPA violation > vw vs us government = anything less than us$37k per vehicle is a win
2. Consumer violation > vw vs class action = anyone care to guess?
Cost to vw = 1+2.

Edit: like other things criminal charges very unlikely unless they can find a whistleblower or some re dcma violation lol.

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#1394437 25-Sep-2015 15:34

Fred99: It's almost certain that "cycle-beating" is widespread as part of "playing the game" - but not using the "defeat device".

Does it matter how they "play the game" the end result is the same? They're telling porkies which ever way it's done.

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#1394449 25-Sep-2015 15:56

Technofreak:
Fred99: It's almost certain that "cycle-beating" is widespread as part of "playing the game" - but not using the "defeat device".

Does it matter how they "play the game" the end result is the same? They're telling porkies which ever way it's done.

We're having a hard time trying to convince you that there is a difference ... let me try an analogy:

A 16 year old telling a bar owner they are 18 = telling a porky.

A 16 year old telling a bar owner they are 18 and then producing false photo ID to back their age claim = fraud.

VW is the latter. First they told porkies ... but they then went a step further and set up a deception designed to subvert independent testing of their claims.

MikeB4

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#1394457 25-Sep-2015 16:12

Fred99:
lxsw20: OK man, you seem pretty passionate about this or have knowledge that no one else seems to...or a time machine.

You're right. I am passionate about it. I'm like that - I'm a geek. I like to learn how things work. I despise fraud and corruption. VW/Audi deliberately defrauded at least 11 million customers, sabotaged the environment, and deliberately breached environmental protection legislation in place in many countries. It wasn't "negligence" - it was deliberate. It wasn't "isolated" - it was global.
The last thing I want to see is a collective shoulder shrug and these criminals slapped with a wet bus ticket - thus sending a message out that "anything goes".

I don't believe in trial, prosecution and sentencing by press. The outcome will be in court having regard to ALL the facts.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#1394511 25-Sep-2015 17:48

I really doubt there will be criminal prosecution. Certainly not anyone important anyway.

dafman

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#1394536 25-Sep-2015 18:43

MikeB4:
Fred99:
lxsw20: OK man, you seem pretty passionate about this or have knowledge that no one else seems to...or a time machine.

You're right. I am passionate about it. I'm like that - I'm a geek. I like to learn how things work. I despise fraud and corruption. VW/Audi deliberately defrauded at least 11 million customers, sabotaged the environment, and deliberately breached environmental protection legislation in place in many countries. It wasn't "negligence" - it was deliberate. It wasn't "isolated" - it was global.
The last thing I want to see is a collective shoulder shrug and these criminals slapped with a wet bus ticket - thus sending a message out that "anything goes".

I don't believe in trial, prosecution and sentencing by press. The outcome will be in court having regard to ALL the facts.

Good point. All the facts. Let's start with VW's admission of wrong doing, their CE's resignation, and add from there.

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