Israel Folau saga.

Forums › Sports › Israel Folau saga.

1 | ... | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | ... | 26

First time caller
399 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 256

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2312031 7-Sep-2019 00:48

Batman:
I only have one issue with the topic of sin. Everybody commits sins.

I don’t sin. I’m an atheist.
Sinning is an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law. Since there is no divine law there is no sin.

Blue Sky: shadowfoot.bsky.social

freitasm

BDFL - Memuneh
80661 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 41083

Administrator

ID Verified

Trusted

Geekzone

Lifetime subscriber

#2312104 7-Sep-2019 09:42

PhantomNVD: Bi curious?

Sorry, couldn’t help that one...

From a Christian perspective, Homosexuality is sinful and Christians don’t believe God created someone with an intrinsic desire for sin (original sin is another whole topic!)

Thus is God created Man and Women in His own image, perfect and pleasing to Him, then homosexuals are people who (through ‘nurture’/experience/choice, not ‘nature’/birth) become homosexuals and have the same choice as any other sinner to repent of their sin.

Christian perspective is that homosexual are made that way by their earthly influences, experiences or choices, not by God in their birth state.

Sorry... If it's not in the Ten Commandments, too bad. It's a pass.

People created the whole "sin" thing to inflict fear, uncertainty and doubt. And exert control over others.

If $deity wanted to codify law in more detail, he would have put in the tablets given to Moses. He didn't, so any "religious law" is man-made. Therefore not "from above".

There's no way anyone received a word from $deity after Moses (who supposedly received, but no witnesses)...

Referral links: Quic Broadband (free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE) | Samsung | AliExpress | Wise | Sharesies

Support Geekzone by subscribing (browse ads-free), or making a one-off or recurring donation through PressPatron.

Dratsab

3964 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1728

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2312120 7-Sep-2019 09:58

freitasm: If $deity wanted to codify law in more detail, he would have put in the tablets given to Moses.

He did, but Moses screwed up...

PhantomNVD

2619 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 759
Inactive user

#2312130 7-Sep-2019 10:22

Handle9: If that is the answer I'm not sure what is so complex about that. In my opinion it's an idiotic view that ignores all evidence but I wouldn't describe it as complex.

The complexity comes in that other sins are generally recognised as ‘wrong’ and people regret and try to ameliorate their effects and change. Nobody accepts that a psychotic killer has only done something they were born to do, and so even though they might get sentenced with a mental illness in mind, they are still recognised as being ‘wrong’.

Batman’s examples of internet piracy, anger and lusting after another are all also generally recognised as morally or legally wrong, avoidable and thus intrinsically unwanted behaviours.

Homosexuality is being whitewashed with the ‘born that way’ argument used to justify the Biblical sinfulness and in an attempt to make it non sinful, and therefore not in need of repentance (or change) and not in need of God’s forgiveness.

Your choice to do as you will in your own space with another consenting adult is just that... your choice. In the same way as lust (let’s say pornography rather than rape), internet piracy, and rage... they are an individual choice with individual outcomes. Christians believe the “wages of sin is [spiritual] death” (separation from God=hell).

Edit- to be fair Israel Folau also posted (equally) about all the other sins too... drunkenness etc.

freitasm

BDFL - Memuneh
80661 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 41083

Administrator

ID Verified

Trusted

Geekzone

Lifetime subscriber

#2312134 7-Sep-2019 10:26

PhantomNVD:

Homosexuality is being whitewashed with the ‘born that way’ argument used to justify the Biblical sinfulness and in an attempt to make it non sinful, and therefore not in need of repentance (or change) and not in need of God’s forgiveness.

Are you saying society is changing the views on homosexuality in a "whitewash" process but ultimately it is a (sinful) choice?

Referral links: Quic Broadband (free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE) | Samsung | AliExpress | Wise | Sharesies

Support Geekzone by subscribing (browse ads-free), or making a one-off or recurring donation through PressPatron.

PhantomNVD

2619 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 759
Inactive user

#2312139 7-Sep-2019 10:40

freitasm:
PhantomNVD:

Homosexuality is being whitewashed with the ‘born that way’ argument used to justify the Biblical sinfulness and in an attempt to make it non sinful, and therefore not in need of repentance (or change) and not in need of God’s forgiveness.

Are you saying society is changing the views on homosexuality in a "whitewash" process but ultimately it is a (sinful) choice?

Basically yes?

As Shadowfoot said here:

Shadowfoot:
Batman:
I only have one issue with the topic of sin. Everybody commits sins.

I don’t sin. I’m an atheist.
Sinning is an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

In an attempt to ‘modernise’ Christianity the moral compass is being tweaked to allow for modern ideas. If you don’t believe in a Divine law (or in God) then your perspective is open to being changed and your moral compass can follow whatever magnet you choose.
But if you believe Christ died for you, to forgive your sins, and that you need Him in your life to be saved from the consequences of your sin (separation from God, AKA Hell) then you must first accept that your sin is wrong to be able to need His forgiveness?

Let’s go outside religion for a minute and talk AA... until the alcoholic recognises they have a problem, the help is neither wanted (or even perceived as needed by the alcoholic!) once they admit they HAVE a problem and NEED help, the process to help them effectively can begin.

Mighty Ape

Shop now at Mighty Ape (affiliate link).

freitasm

BDFL - Memuneh
80661 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 41083

Administrator

ID Verified

Trusted

Geekzone

Lifetime subscriber

#2312147 7-Sep-2019 10:59

PhantomNVD:

In an attempt to ‘modernise’ Christianity the moral compass is being tweaked to allow for modern ideas. If you don’t believe in a Divine law (or in God) then your perspective is open to being changed and your moral compass can follow whatever magnet you choose.

You are assuming a moral compass doesn't exist without a religious belief.

PhantomNVD:

But if you believe Christ died for you, to forgive your sins, and that you need Him in your life to be saved from the consequences of your sin (separation from God, AKA Hell) then you must first accept that your sin is wrong to be able to need His forgiveness?

We got it, you don't like homosexuals and because of that you are think imposing your way of life into someone else is a valid option. It is not.

Also I don't see homosexuals trying to make everyone gay.

PhantomNVD:

Let’s go outside religion for a minute and talk AA... until the alcoholic recognises they have a problem, the help is neither wanted (or even perceived as needed by the alcoholic!) once they admit they HAVE a problem and NEED help, the process to help them effectively can begin.

I think alcoholism and sin are very different things, in the sense that the first is a health problem with physical manifestation of consequences. The other is a belief.

Referral links: Quic Broadband (free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE) | Samsung | AliExpress | Wise | Sharesies

Support Geekzone by subscribing (browse ads-free), or making a one-off or recurring donation through PressPatron.

PhantomNVD

2619 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 759
Inactive user

#2312233 7-Sep-2019 12:39

freitasm:
PhantomNVD:

In an attempt to ‘modernise’ Christianity the moral compass is being tweaked to allow for modern ideas. If you don’t believe in a Divine law (or in God) then your perspective is open to being changed and your moral compass can follow whatever magnet you choose.

You are assuming a moral compass doesn't exist without a religious belief.

PhantomNVD:

But if you believe Christ died for you, to forgive your sins, and that you need Him in your life to be saved from the consequences of your sin (separation from God, AKA Hell) then you must first accept that your sin is wrong to be able to need His forgiveness?

We got it, you don't like homosexuals and because of that you are think imposing your way of life into someone else is a valid option. It is not.

Also I don't see homosexuals trying to make everyone gay.

PhantomNVD:

Let’s go outside religion for a minute and talk AA... until the alcoholic recognises they have a problem, the help is neither wanted (or even perceived as needed by the alcoholic!) once they admit they HAVE a problem and NEED help, the process to help them effectively can begin.

I think alcoholism and sin are very different things, in the sense that the first is a health problem with physical manifestation of consequences. The other is a belief.

No I believe everyone has a ‘moral compass’, but we choose whether to base it on our religion, our society or our own opinions.

I don’t dislike homosexuals! I don’t dislike the poor, the atheists, the drunks or the ‘fornicators and adulterers’ either!

These are all people who are doing things I disagree with, but that doesn’t make them people I don’t like!

I disagree with my kids giving me backchat, wetting the bed, refusing to tidy their rooms etc... but I lLove my kids AND I like them too :)

Similarly Jesus doesn’t hate the sinner, just the choices they make to sin. I try to do the same, though some people are simply harder to like than others (especially sanctimonious people who think they are the only correct ones :D )

dafman

4055 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2652

Trusted

#2312246 7-Sep-2019 13:10

PhantomNVD: No I believe everyone has a ‘moral compass’, but we choose whether to base it on our religion, our society or our own opinions.

I don’t dislike homosexuals! I don’t dislike the poor, the atheists, the drunks or the ‘fornicators and adulterers’ either!

These are all people who are doing things I disagree with, but that doesn’t make them people I don’t like!

I disagree with my kids giving me backchat, wetting the bed, refusing to tidy their rooms etc... but I lLove my kids AND I like them too :)

Similarly Jesus doesn’t hate the sinner, just the choices they make to sin. I try to do the same, though some people are simply harder to like than others (especially sanctimonious people who think they are the only correct ones :D )

Yeah, heard it all before, love the sinner, hate the sin, blah blah blah. Although I would love to hear what the poor are doing that you disagree with??!

At a recent Australian Christian Lobby conference (the same folks that organised Folau's recent money grab) homosexuality was linked to either absent parents and/or exposure to pedophiles. Gay people are not born that way and anyone that thinks so is an idiot (the ACL presenter's words, not mine).

Stone-age ignorant gibberish. So, yep, agree, some people are harder to like than others.

PhantomNVD

2619 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 759
Inactive user

#2312261 7-Sep-2019 14:32

dafman:
Yeah, heard it all before, love the sinner, hate the sin, blah blah blah. Although I would love to hear what the poor are doing that you disagree with??!

At a recent Australian Christian Lobby conference (the same folks that organised Folau's recent money grab) homosexuality was linked to either absent parents and/or exposure to pedophiles. Gay people are not born that way and anyone that thinks so is an idiot (the ACL presenter's words, not mine).

Stone-age ignorant gibberish. So, yep, agree, some people are harder to like than others.

Tho only thing wrong with the poor is the being poor? Something I try to work against (poverty) rather than a sinful state of being.
However, when last did you stop to actually chat to the beggar outside the New World/McDonalds etc?
Most people ‘dislike’ the REALLY poor as we inherently realise that they are only a few pay checks (divorce/family death etc.) from being their too. I try to see them as people and help them as best I can, firstly by listening to what they think they need too.

Handle9

11927 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9683

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2312307 7-Sep-2019 15:22

PhantomNVD:
freitasm:

PhantomNVD:

Homosexuality is being whitewashed with the ‘born that way’ argument used to justify the Biblical sinfulness and in an attempt to make it non sinful, and therefore not in need of repentance (or change) and not in need of God’s forgiveness.

Are you saying society is changing the views on homosexuality in a "whitewash" process but ultimately it is a (sinful) choice?

Basically yes?

This is where I get lost. Is being heterosexual a "choice"? For me it is not, it is who I am and I couldn't change it if I wanted to.

Quic Broadband

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.

alasta

6891 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3365

Trusted

Subscriber

#2312351 7-Sep-2019 16:14

I would just like to point out that believing sexual/homosexual behaviour to be a choice does not necessarily imply disapproval or contempt.

The fact that I am choosing to drink a nice glass of merlot right now doesn't mean there's anything wrong with doing so.

PhantomNVD

2619 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 759
Inactive user

#2312397 7-Sep-2019 16:37

Handle9:

This is where I get lost. Is being heterosexual a "choice"? For me it is not, it is who I am and I couldn't change it if I wanted to.

Well technically breathing is a choice I keep making too, but no, heterosexual is a birth state as the species requires reproduction to continue. Homosexual intercourse, getting an ear/nose/etc pierced, getting circumcised or even just filling or pulling out a rotten tooth are all ‘choices’ that change us after we are born, all of which have consequences... some positive and others negative.

Batman

Mad Scientist
30014 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 6217

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2312398 7-Sep-2019 16:40

PhantomNVD:
Handle9:

This is where I get lost. Is being heterosexual a "choice"? For me it is not, it is who I am and I couldn't change it if I wanted to.

Well technically breathing is a choice I keep making too, but no, heterosexual is a birth state as the species requires reproduction to continue. Homosexual intercourse, getting an ear/nose/etc pierced, getting circumcised or even just filling or pulling out a rotten tooth are all ‘choices’ that change us after we are born, all of which have consequences... some positive and others negative.

What about hermaphrodites and the islander ladymen who go to church?

On the other hand, why does the law ban sex with animals assuming some may be attracted.

Handle9

11927 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9683

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2312400 7-Sep-2019 16:41

PhantomNVD:
Handle9:

This is where I get lost. Is being heterosexual a "choice"? For me it is not, it is who I am and I couldn't change it if I wanted to.

Well technically breathing is a choice I keep making too, but no, heterosexual is a birth state as the species requires reproduction to continue. Homosexual intercourse, getting an ear/nose/etc pierced, getting circumcised or even just filling or pulling out a rotten tooth are all ‘choices’ that change us after we are born, all of which have consequences... some positive and others negative.

In my opinion, and it has been pretty comprehensibly demonstrated, that is BS. At that point religion becomes willful ignorance at best.

1 | ... | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | ... | 26