NZ gun laws

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#2201257 18-Mar-2019 22:49

Ge0rge: Maybe he just owns the business? If he himself isn't actually selling firearms, does he need a D endorsement on his licence?

Something like owning a real estate business, but paying agents to sell houses - would you need your licence to simply own the business if you weren't actually selling houses?

I honestly don't know if either of the above are possible.

He is licensed. He said that today as well firearms licence. I don't know how he remains there today. But he is, and while he has been taken to court by Police and taken them to court, he has been commended by them.

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#2201259 18-Mar-2019 22:53

Ok - I did expect that to be the case, but I figure someone else must have at least held the D while he was a guest of the USA.

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#2201264 18-Mar-2019 23:02

Ge0rge: Ok - I did expect that to be the case, but I figure someone else must have at least held the D while he was a guest of the USA.

His wife has a dealer licence, presumably as cover. For any issues, death, accident, smuggling :-)

dejadeadnz

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#2201270 18-Mar-2019 23:12

tdgeek:

If he was an angel, nothing changes. I can't see the point of debating his moral standards when his business is using legal standards to trade.

What utter thoughtless tripe. Section 5(3) of the Arms Act requires gun dealers to be "fit and proper" person to hold a dealer's license. There are general and established common law principles which say that statutory provisions should be given their plain and logical meaning. Most people with any kind of sense, who recognise the dangers posed by firearms and their poorly controlled proliferation, would not deem a person who's essentially gone to jail for smuggling guns illegally out of another country to be a fit and proper person to be a gun dealer. Again, either the law currently is a load of arse or the police has been asleep at the wheel. You extrapolate this kind of nonsense to how many guns we have in this country (and according to OIA releases by the police, as reported by RNZ today, around 99% of gun licence applicants get one), you'd realise what an utterly unacceptable and unsafe situation we've potentially got.

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#2201283 18-Mar-2019 23:49

dejadeadnz:

tdgeek:

If he was an angel, nothing changes. I can't see the point of debating his moral standards when his business is using legal standards to trade.

What utter thoughtless tripe. Section 5(3) of the Arms Act requires gun dealers to be "fit and proper" person to hold a dealer's license. There are general and established common law principles which say that statutory provisions should be given their plain and logical meaning. Most people with any kind of sense, who recognise the dangers posed by firearms and their poorly controlled proliferation, would not deem a person who's essentially gone to jail for smuggling guns illegally out of another country to be a fit and proper person to be a gun dealer. Again, either the law currently is a load of arse or the police has been asleep at the wheel. You extrapolate this kind of nonsense to how many guns we have in this country (and according to OIA releases by the police, as reported by RNZ today, around 99% of gun licence applicants get one), you'd realise what an utterly unacceptable and unsafe situation we've potentially got.

You answered your own question. Its the law or the Police. Which is it? Because for 40 years he has been in business. Jailed in the US, firing shots over people heads. So why has the legal system and/or the Police allowed this for decades? He isn't new.

99% of gun applicant get one, that makes sense. As hoods wont apply, only genuine people, and of those 99% pose no inherent risk, due to violence, mental health, and they pass the safety tests and storage requirements. Makes sense.

There is a potential risk thats correct, always has been. The criminal element will get guns from where they steal them from, they dont need AR15 style. Cant stop that. The incidence of accidents is super low. Will reducing semi's help? Guns will still kill if they are used for that. Unless you ban guns I cannot see a change. You don't like the point raised that people kill not guns. You sad that yesterday or the day before when dissing anybody who doesn't agree. Prior to that you had a long post expousing the fact that its the people and attitudes that must change.

If you ban guns completely, it will be bombs, and you cannot ban them. Im extremely surprised that people think that banning semi automatic weapons will make any material difference. It would in a terror attack. And it would change the weapon to something else. I am in favour of changes, but I seem to be one of few that see that as minor and that people need to be stopped as people will do whatever they want, semi automatics or not.

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#2201292 19-Mar-2019 00:12

You seem incredibly determined to take a black and white/binary view on everything. I'd argue that both the law and the administration of gun laws currently are badly failing NZ. Given the disastrous consequences of any further failures, I and many others argue it's time to stop favouring the interests of a selfish minority of gun nuts (or their odd pigheaded defenders who seem to want to argue their case relentlessly). Yes, I recognise that there are other societal forces at work that also need to be looked at but holding this view does not preclude me from believing that getting rid of weapons that confer little societal benefits but can cause significantly more damage in the hands of the palpably deranged is also required, i.e. that semi-automatics/MSAA are still a problem.

But hey keep thinking it's either one thing or the other and keep your NRA-like arguments going. You're doing great, champ!

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#2201296 19-Mar-2019 00:48

dejadeadnz:

You seem incredibly determined to take a black and white/binary view on everything. I'd argue that both the law and the administration of gun laws currently are badly failing NZ. Given the disastrous consequences of any further failures, I and many others argue it's time to stop favouring the interests of a selfish minority of gun nuts (or their odd pigheaded defenders who seem to want to argue their case relentlessly). Yes, I recognise that there are other societal forces at work that also need to be looked at but holding this view does not preclude me from believing that getting rid of weapons that confer little societal benefits but can cause significantly more damage in the hands of the palpably deranged is also required, i.e. that semi-automatics/MSAA are still a problem.

But hey keep thinking it's either one thing or the other and keep your NRA-like arguments going. You're doing great, champ!

You were going quite well until the end. I have no issue with your debates, even the excessive use of super-adjectives to EXPRESS your disapproval, but your attitude really is in the gutter. As Technofreak stated

These forums are not a meeting place where the sole purpose is to change minds as you are always right. Its a discussion. In these topics related to the tragedy here, there are sound points from both sides. Whether its the semi auto side or the Crusaders side. Both sides offer sound arguments. Although you only see one side, your side. Technofreaks post was sound. Your post implying that since the tragedy its changed is also sound. His that the name of the team since 1996 has never raised any concerns from our Muslim cousins. That is also sound. Im sure if they were not concerned about that name till now, they wont be thinking of rugby at a time like this. Thats also a sound argument. Maybe one day they may raise it, maybe we should ask once matters settle. Im sure if it was problem anytime in the past we would know. Discuss if you wish. But you need to learn to discuss.

If the law and admin of gun laws is failing thats good to know. It's not obvious. Criminals have guns cannot stop that, they fire shots from time to time which is sad, but its not that common. We cannot affect that unless we ban all guns. Recreational accidents are rare. Those 250,000 licence holders are doing fine. Not 100% fine but very very close to it. Yes, until Friday, a semi was just a waste of time, apart from handy to have a good magazine, but since my youth, thats been reduced, so recreation can do without them. Its been no issue till now, and while I agree that if there were no large magazines Friday would not have been as bad, and we should reduce the effect of another Friday, where was everybody for the last 10+ years?? Do we ignore it till something happens? If we ban semis and never have another Friday its still a win. But its poor that we just decide its a problem worth looking into now. the rugby name is the same argument.

So, no, its never B+W for me. I have my opinion, you are free to change it. That doesnt apply to everyone, if people lock themselves in. thats B+W

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#2201302 19-Mar-2019 01:17

Clip from one of many articles. 1.5M guns in NZ, that's 1 for every 3.2 people, thats rubbish. Farmers are a lobby group. Hardly a danger demographic, or an NRA operative. Recreationals are vey safe, despite the gun laws. I wonder if the Govt may ban semis except for farms? Farms and recreationals are safe, safe for themselves and others, so again it comes down to people. Some people and probably very few are getting guns when they should not be getting them. NZ, AUS and the rest of Five Eyes knew nothing, thats the problem. IMHO.

Carvell's auctions is another outlet which has been operating for 30 years, and a leading name in the business.

The best estimate of the total number of firearms owned by New Zealanders is about 1.5 million, and 15,000 are reportedly

According to Statistics NZ the number of firearms imported annually has been similar over the past five years.

Common brands include Pedersoli, Chiappa, Uberti, and Rossi from the US.

Meanwhile, a significant lobby group, Federated Farmers, appears to be maintaining the stance it took in 2017 when some laws were reformed.

Miles Anderson said higher calibre repeater guns were most effective for control of pests such as rabbits, goats and Canada geese.

During the 2017 gun reform proposals, Federated Farmers said it did not support the recommendation of the Parliamentary Select Committee inquiry into the illegal possession of firearms that semiautomatic firearms should be further regulated.

"You don't use an axe to cut down a tree when you can use a chainsaw," Federated Farmers said at the time.

vulcannz

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#2201342 19-Mar-2019 08:29

Fred99:

vulcannz:

it doesn't physically correlate

I just want to make sure people get their facts right.

These facts:

In the seven years before the NFA (1989-1995), the average annual firearm suicide death rate per 100,000 was 2.6 (with a yearly range of 2.2 to 2.9); in the seven years after the buyback was fully implemented (1998-2004), the average annual firearm suicide rate was 1.1 (yearly range 0.8 to 1.4).”

In the seven years before the NFA, the average annual firearm homicide rate per 100,000 was .43 (range .27 to .60) while for the seven years post NFA, the average annual firearm homicide rate was .25 (range .16 to .33).

Those are very much cherry picked stats, have a read here: https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gun-control-australia-updated/

Aussie homicide rates peaked in 91, then started a steady decline.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-54d2a1fd9a42f7ddd9a172ac9266bddd.webp

dejadeadnz

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#2201357 19-Mar-2019 08:52

tdgeek:

These forums are not a meeting place where the sole purpose is to change minds as you are always right. Its a discussion. In these topics related to the tragedy here, there are sound points from both sides. Whether its the semi auto side or the Crusaders side. Both sides offer sound arguments. Although you only see one side, your side. Technofreaks post was sound. Your post implying that since the tragedy its changed is also sound. His that the name of the team since 1996 has never raised any concerns from our Muslim cousins. That is also sound. Im sure if they were not concerned about that name till now, they wont be thinking of rugby at a time like this. Thats also a sound argument. Maybe one day they may raise it, maybe we should ask once matters settle. Im sure if it was problem anytime in the past we would know. Discuss if you wish. But you need to learn to discuss.

If the law and admin of gun laws is failing thats good to know. It's not obvious.

A meaningful discussion requires clear and logically developed arguments by reference to objectively verifiable evidence and for people to draw conclusions that are in comport with the strength of the evidence that they present.

Your last assertion is simply an outrageously mendacious statement that holds zero basis in reality, unless you consider yourself to be entitled to dismiss out of hand:

1. The 1997 Thoprp inquiry's findings, which highlighted the many failings of our gun laws;

2. The 2017 Parliament Law and Order Committee Report;

3. Numerous experts' (including the likes of Nicholas Taylor - a leading firearms lawyer; Alexander Gillespie - leading terrorism expert) well-developed arguments that the law as it stands in practice utterly fails to stop those who are not supposed to possess MSAAs in possessing one; and

4. My analysis that notwithstanding there being a "fit and proper" person test/requirement for being a gun dealer, a person who has multiple convictions, including one for effectively gun smuggling, can be a gun dealer.

And the above is just a sample.

Now if you are prepared to marshal a serious amount of evidence and engage in some serious exposition, you're perfectly entitled to try and develop an argument that justifies your last statement. But as things stand, your assertion is as worthy of respect as the ravings of anti-vaxxers on vaccines. By the way, read what the mods on the forum have said numerous times: discuss the issue that is on topic for the thread and do not reference others' posts elsewhere on the forums. If you want to start a debate personally about me or what I have to say about the Crusaders, take it elsewhere.

networkn

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#2201360 19-Mar-2019 09:00

dejadeadnz:

What utter thoughtless tripe. Section 5(3) of the Arms Act requires gun dealers to be "fit and proper" person to hold a dealer's license. There are general and established common law principles which say that statutory provisions should be given their plain and logical meaning. Most people with any kind of sense, who recognise the dangers posed by firearms and their poorly controlled proliferation, would not deem a person who's essentially gone to jail for smuggling guns illegally out of another country to be a fit and proper person to be a gun dealer. Again, either the law currently is a load of arse or the police has been asleep at the wheel. You extrapolate this kind of nonsense to how many guns we have in this country (and according to OIA releases by the police, as reported by RNZ today, around 99% of gun licence applicants get one), you'd realise what an utterly unacceptable and unsafe situation we've potentially got.

99% of people who apply get a license. There will inevitably be people who get a gun license who shouldn't have one, I doubt without a 100% ban on guns and revoking all licenses, you could stop that entirely. However, gun violence in NZ is low so it would seem to me that the vastest majority of gun license holders aren't creating a problem.

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/376625/regions-with-the-highest-rates-of-gun-related-deaths-revealed

I support a ban on semi automatic weapons and I think an overall review is worthwhile.

tdgeek

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#2201361 19-Mar-2019 09:01

dejadeadnz:

What were the findings of the NFA in Australia? How did that work out? Evidence is quite clear, as you should know

As to personal, read your own posts and others posts and look for the difference. Focus on delivery and communication skills. Anger gets tiresome so I wont be catering for yours today.

networkn

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#2201393 19-Mar-2019 09:44

dejadeadnz:

You seem incredibly determined to take a black and white/binary view on everything.

Do you not believe you are the same way? In my experience, you have some of the most unbending and rigid views of anyone I've experienced. Anyone who doesn't comply to your exacting standards of behaviour is treated as not being "oxygen worthy".

tdgeek

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#2201400 19-Mar-2019 09:53

networkn:

dejadeadnz:

What utter thoughtless tripe. Section 5(3) of the Arms Act requires gun dealers to be "fit and proper" person to hold a dealer's license. There are general and established common law principles which say that statutory provisions should be given their plain and logical meaning. Most people with any kind of sense, who recognise the dangers posed by firearms and their poorly controlled proliferation, would not deem a person who's essentially gone to jail for smuggling guns illegally out of another country to be a fit and proper person to be a gun dealer. Again, either the law currently is a load of arse or the police has been asleep at the wheel. You extrapolate this kind of nonsense to how many guns we have in this country (and according to OIA releases by the police, as reported by RNZ today, around 99% of gun licence applicants get one), you'd realise what an utterly unacceptable and unsafe situation we've potentially got.

99% of people who apply get a license. There will inevitably be people who get a gun license who shouldn't have one, I doubt without a 100% ban on guns and revoking all licenses, you could stop that entirely. However, gun violence in NZ is low so it would seem to me that the vastest majority of gun license holders aren't creating a problem.

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/376625/regions-with-the-highest-rates-of-gun-related-deaths-revealed

I support a ban on semi automatic weapons and I think an overall review is worthwhile.

Here are some stats from Vulcans post above if you haven't looked at them. Both links are worthwhile. We all want the best result, but the gun law in AUS didnt go very far. I also support new measures though, it cannot do any harm. Its more then gun laws by these links

Those are very much cherry picked stats, have a read here: https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gun-control-australia-updated/

Aussie homicide rates peaked in 91, then started a steady decline.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-54d2a1fd9a42f7ddd9a172ac9266bddd.webp

Fred99

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#2201428 19-Mar-2019 10:42

vulcannz:

Those are very much cherry picked stats, have a read here: https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gun-control-australia-updated/

Aussie homicide rates peaked in 91, then started a steady decline.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-54d2a1fd9a42f7ddd9a172ac9266bddd.webp

Yes I know that, but that apparent decline may also be statistically insignificant.

I'll concede that I'm biased. Other things have changed since the mid '90s too, statistics on # of sales to random customers of explosive grade ammonium nitrate may have fallen, but nobody (I hope) wants to liberalise sale of that back to what it was!

From NZ's point of view, since Aramoana (where semi autos incl one .223 calibre MSSA was used), sample size of 1 large mass shooting won't allow for any valid data to "prove" anything. But this killing was terrorism, the scale of it was massive, and it's probably quite reasonable to conclude with the information we have now that easy access to weapons was one of the factors that attracted a foreign terrorist to choose NZ. Nobody wants it to ever happen again, so eliminating semi-automatic weapons from circulation is an absolute no-brainer.

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