Moment of Truth?

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#1130274 16-Sep-2014 21:44

In fact I'll make things easy for you, this list is just in the US alone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11

Geektastic

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#1130275 16-Sep-2014 21:48

gzt:
Geektastic: At the end of the day, all countries spy. They all collect data on bad people.

More accurately as per the (prior to this moment of truth) Snowden documents the approach has evolved to collect data on everyone and decide who is bad later. A big part of the problem revealed by Snowden prior to all this is (a) massive data collection and (b) very few safeguards if any about how that is used.

That's really no different in theory than a police force spread through a community looking and listening to everyone and then learning who to focus attention on. Only the scale of the community and the insane nature of the threat differ.

marmel

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#1130276 16-Sep-2014 21:48

Now looking at those scenarios how many lives would have been lost? How much money would have been spent on further military action?

Given anyone can get access to a new Sim card whenever they feel you start to see why mass surveillance is used as a tool against terrorism.

I guess there has to be a balance between that and individual rights to privacy, my own views are that I'm comfortable with where things are in NZ at the moment but each to his own.

turnin

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#1130278 16-Sep-2014 21:50

KiwiNZ:
turnin: Actually the biggest threat to NZ is not terrorism , it's people that absolutely have no concern or measure of civil liberties or history and believe everything the media tells them. Granted this is political for Kim dotcom, but it sure as hell isn't for me .

Snowdon and Assange are beyond reproach in my book, I really don't see why they would throw their lives away for brief moments of internet fame, they are doing what they are doing so that the educated in society can do something about it.

This conversation is not about monitoring known terrorists, half the NSA targets are simply not terrorists and virtually all of the data collected is not related to terrorism.
The conversations I'm hearing, a lot of people have big issues with this, and rightly so.
I don't recall giving up my right to privacy, I don't recall my business becoming an open slather for governments. The encryption argument is mute, yes encrypt everything anyway but I think it is seriously misleading to suggest that the GCSB can not decrypt, which IS what key advised when questioned during the Intelligence and Security select committee hearing into the GCSB at Parliament in 2013.

Allowing the govt to keep records on every single facet of my life and business, index them and retrieve them willy nilly when ever they see fit or fortuitous is damaging to society.

Conveniently ignored today is the fact that the documents released today by Key have absolutely nothing to do with speargun
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/15/questions-new-zealand-mass-surveillance/

Privacy and the TPP aside the public have a right to debate such issues and have the information to do so, for our own law society to have to approach the UN is a very slippery slope.

Both have committed crimes and one has yet to face up to a sexual assault charge I guess that is ok then.

Historically whistleblowers have either been killed or had manufactured charges levelled at them, interestingly, there are actually no charges levelled at Assange, despite US medias consistent misreporting he is only wanted for "Questioning" and has invited swedish police to interview him in the Embassy, oddly they have declined, you might want to look at the statements made by the two women also.
In general terms it's a "fit up" but by all means buy it hook line and sinker.

MikeB4

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#1130282 16-Sep-2014 21:56

turnin:
KiwiNZ:
turnin: Actually the biggest threat to NZ is not terrorism , it's people that absolutely have no concern or measure of civil liberties or history and believe everything the media tells them. Granted this is political for Kim dotcom, but it sure as hell isn't for me .

Snowdon and Assange are beyond reproach in my book, I really don't see why they would throw their lives away for brief moments of internet fame, they are doing what they are doing so that the educated in society can do something about it.

This conversation is not about monitoring known terrorists, half the NSA targets are simply not terrorists and virtually all of the data collected is not related to terrorism.
The conversations I'm hearing, a lot of people have big issues with this, and rightly so.
I don't recall giving up my right to privacy, I don't recall my business becoming an open slather for governments. The encryption argument is mute, yes encrypt everything anyway but I think it is seriously misleading to suggest that the GCSB can not decrypt, which IS what key advised when questioned during the Intelligence and Security select committee hearing into the GCSB at Parliament in 2013.

Allowing the govt to keep records on every single facet of my life and business, index them and retrieve them willy nilly when ever they see fit or fortuitous is damaging to society.

Conveniently ignored today is the fact that the documents released today by Key have absolutely nothing to do with speargun
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/15/questions-new-zealand-mass-surveillance/

Privacy and the TPP aside the public have a right to debate such issues and have the information to do so, for our own law society to have to approach the UN is a very slippery slope.

Both have committed crimes and one has yet to face up to a sexual assault charge I guess that is ok then.

Historically whistleblowers have either been killed or had manufactured charges levelled at them, interestingly, there are actually no charges levelled at Assange, despite US medias consistent misreporting he is only wanted for "Questioning" and has invited swedish police to interview him in the Embassy, oddly they have declined, you might want to look at the statements made by the two women also.
In general terms it's a "fit up" but by all means buy it hook line and sinker.

The appropriate place to decide these allegations is in a court of law.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

ObidiahSlope

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#1130283 16-Sep-2014 21:56

The GSCB missed the faxes flying backwards and forwards from the Noumea branch office to Paris headquarters when the DGSE was plotting to blow up the Rainbow Warrior.

Now to make sure that they don't miss anything like that again they reckon they need to intercept communications discussing which horse is likely to win the next race at Trentham, what Kylie said to Katie and why Katie is upset about it, and Susan asking her husband to buy some milk on his way home from work.

Obsequious hypocrite

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marmel

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#1130284 16-Sep-2014 21:57

turnin:
KiwiNZ:
turnin: Actually the biggest threat to NZ is not terrorism , it's people that absolutely have no concern or measure of civil liberties or history and believe everything the media tells them. Granted this is political for Kim dotcom, but it sure as hell isn't for me .

Snowdon and Assange are beyond reproach in my book, I really don't see why they would throw their lives away for brief moments of internet fame, they are doing what they are doing so that the educated in society can do something about it.

This conversation is not about monitoring known terrorists, half the NSA targets are simply not terrorists and virtually all of the data collected is not related to terrorism.
The conversations I'm hearing, a lot of people have big issues with this, and rightly so.
I don't recall giving up my right to privacy, I don't recall my business becoming an open slather for governments. The encryption argument is mute, yes encrypt everything anyway but I think it is seriously misleading to suggest that the GCSB can not decrypt, which IS what key advised when questioned during the Intelligence and Security select committee hearing into the GCSB at Parliament in 2013.

Allowing the govt to keep records on every single facet of my life and business, index them and retrieve them willy nilly when ever they see fit or fortuitous is damaging to society.

Conveniently ignored today is the fact that the documents released today by Key have absolutely nothing to do with speargun
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/15/questions-new-zealand-mass-surveillance/

Privacy and the TPP aside the public have a right to debate such issues and have the information to do so, for our own law society to have to approach the UN is a very slippery slope.

Both have committed crimes and one has yet to face up to a sexual assault charge I guess that is ok then.

Historically whistleblowers have either been killed or had manufactured charges levelled at them, interestingly, there are actually no charges levelled at Assange, despite US medias consistent misreporting he is only wanted for "Questioning" and has invited swedish police to interview him in the Embassy, oddly they have declined, you might want to look at the statements made by the two women also.
In general terms it's a "fit up" but by all means buy it hook line and sinker.

From what I've read I think you''re right, the whole thing was very dodgy.

Still doesn't change my opinion of Snowden and Assange from last night, millions and millions of documents, not a single one produced to support their assertions? Something doesn't seem right about that.

Something doesn't really sit right about the whole show. Dotcom planning this for months and then says nothing and later uses a complaint to the privileges committed as an excuse, that's laughable. He either had no evidence to begin with and was hoping the $5m bounty he offered for whistle blowers was going to turn something up or somethino else has happened which has silenced him.

I think Assange and Snowden will come to regret aligning themselves to Dotcom in this manner, as others have stated both had a reasonably good reputation for coming up with the goods prior to this. Surely both would have done a bit of research on who was running the show before agreeing to participate?

Geektastic

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#1130285 16-Sep-2014 21:58

turnin:
KiwiNZ:
turnin: Actually the biggest threat to NZ is not terrorism , it's people that absolutely have no concern or measure of civil liberties or history and believe everything the media tells them. Granted this is political for Kim dotcom, but it sure as hell isn't for me .

Snowdon and Assange are beyond reproach in my book, I really don't see why they would throw their lives away for brief moments of internet fame, they are doing what they are doing so that the educated in society can do something about it.

This conversation is not about monitoring known terrorists, half the NSA targets are simply not terrorists and virtually all of the data collected is not related to terrorism.
The conversations I'm hearing, a lot of people have big issues with this, and rightly so.
I don't recall giving up my right to privacy, I don't recall my business becoming an open slather for governments. The encryption argument is mute, yes encrypt everything anyway but I think it is seriously misleading to suggest that the GCSB can not decrypt, which IS what key advised when questioned during the Intelligence and Security select committee hearing into the GCSB at Parliament in 2013.

Allowing the govt to keep records on every single facet of my life and business, index them and retrieve them willy nilly when ever they see fit or fortuitous is damaging to society.

Conveniently ignored today is the fact that the documents released today by Key have absolutely nothing to do with speargun
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/15/questions-new-zealand-mass-surveillance/

Privacy and the TPP aside the public have a right to debate such issues and have the information to do so, for our own law society to have to approach the UN is a very slippery slope.

Both have committed crimes and one has yet to face up to a sexual assault charge I guess that is ok then.

Historically whistleblowers have either been killed or had manufactured charges levelled at them, interestingly, there are actually no charges levelled at Assange, despite US medias consistent misreporting he is only wanted for "Questioning" and has invited swedish police to interview him in the Embassy, oddly they have declined, you might want to look at the statements made by the two women also.
In general terms it's a "fit up" but by all means buy it hook line and sinker.

Since the Swedish police would have no jurisdiction whilst in a foreign embassy - or in the country where the embassy is located - what would be the point of them interviewing him? Anything he said would be inadmissible.

ajobbins

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#1130286 16-Sep-2014 21:58

marmel: In fact I'll make things easy for you, this list is just in the US alone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11

There is no way to say if any of those were stopped due to mass surveillance, let alone would not have been stopped through targeted surveillance of persons for which a warrant had been obtained to monitor.

Even if mass surveillance was only used today to help find and stop terrorists, once you give up that liberty, there is little to stop any governments using that information in the future for other purposes.

It would be naive to assume that all politicians now and in the future can be trusted not to abuse the huge amount of information they have access to for all sorts of other purposes.

Twitter: ajobbins

Geektastic

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#1130289 16-Sep-2014 21:59

ajobbins:
marmel: In fact I'll make things easy for you, this list is just in the US alone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11

There is no way to say if any of those were stopped due to mass surveillance, let alone would not have been stopped through targeted surveillance of persons for which a warrant had been obtained to monitor.

Even if mass surveillance was only used today to help find and stop terrorists, once you give up that liberty, there is little to stop any governments using that information in the future for other purposes.

It would be naive to assume that all politicians now and in the future can be trusted not to abuse the huge amount of information they have access to for all sorts of other purposes.

So presumably you feel we should simply abandon security checks on passengers boarding planes, since that is a form of intrusive mass surveillance?

gzt

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#1130291 16-Sep-2014 21:59

Geektastic:
gzt:
Geektastic: At the end of the day, all countries spy. They all collect data on bad people.

More accurately as per the (prior to this moment of truth) Snowden documents the approach has evolved to collect data on everyone and decide who is bad later. A big part of the problem revealed by Snowden prior to all this is (a) massive data collection and (b) very few safeguards if any about how that is used.

That's really no different in theory than a police force spread through a community looking and listening to everyone and then learning who to focus attention on. Only the scale of the community and the insane nature of the threat differ.

Well yes. It sounds a lot like dystopia. This is precisely what concerns ordinary people and is exactly the reason why the US government was forced to act once the issue became widely known. Since the war of independence Americans have a strong reaction against granting their government arbitrary powers of search and surveillance. In fact it was a primary driver of the drafting of the American constitution.

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marmel

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#1130293 16-Sep-2014 22:01

ajobbins:
marmel: In fact I'll make things easy for you, this list is just in the US alone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11

There is no way to say if any of those were stopped due to mass surveillance, let alone would not have been stopped through targeted surveillance of persons for which a warrant had been obtained to monitor.

Even if mass surveillance was only used today to help find and stop terrorists, once you give up that liberty, there is little to stop any governments using that information in the future for other purposes.

It would be naive to assume that all politicians now and in the future can be trusted not to abuse the huge amount of information they have access to for all sorts of other purposes.

Like i said, each to his own.

I just think it's a gargantuan leap from where we are now to a 1984 scenario and not something I think we will see in NZ in our lifetimes.

Geektastic

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#1130294 16-Sep-2014 22:01

gzt:
Geektastic:
gzt:
Geektastic: At the end of the day, all countries spy. They all collect data on bad people.

More accurately as per the (prior to this moment of truth) Snowden documents the approach has evolved to collect data on everyone and decide who is bad later. A big part of the problem revealed by Snowden prior to all this is (a) massive data collection and (b) very few safeguards if any about how that is used.

That's really no different in theory than a police force spread through a community looking and listening to everyone and then learning who to focus attention on. Only the scale of the community and the insane nature of the threat differ.

Well yes. It sounds a lot like dystopia. This is precisely what concerns ordinary people and is exactly the reason why the US government was forced to act once the issue became widely known. Since the war of independence Americans have a strong reaction against granting their government arbitrary powers of search and surveillance. In fact it was a primary driver of the drafting of the American constitution.

They do however have a police force in the community that watches and learns, as well as CCTV everywhere....

Geektastic

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#1130295 16-Sep-2014 22:03

marmel:
ajobbins:
marmel: In fact I'll make things easy for you, this list is just in the US alone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11

There is no way to say if any of those were stopped due to mass surveillance, let alone would not have been stopped through targeted surveillance of persons for which a warrant had been obtained to monitor.

Even if mass surveillance was only used today to help find and stop terrorists, once you give up that liberty, there is little to stop any governments using that information in the future for other purposes.

It would be naive to assume that all politicians now and in the future can be trusted not to abuse the huge amount of information they have access to for all sorts of other purposes.

Like i said, each to his own.

I just think it's a gargantuan leap from where we are now to a 1984 scenario and not something I think we will see in NZ in our lifetimes.

You'll see it when the first terrorist decides killing westerners in Auckland is easier than trying to do it somewhere else.

It's coming - be in no doubt about that.

(And to clarify for NSA/GCSB/MI5 etc I mean someone else will eventually do it, not that I am going to...!!!)

MikeB4

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#1130297 16-Sep-2014 22:04

ajobbins:
marmel: In fact I'll make things easy for you, this list is just in the US alone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11

There is no way to say if any of those were stopped due to mass surveillance, let alone would not have been stopped through targeted surveillance of persons for which a warrant had been obtained to monitor.

Even if mass surveillance was only used today to help find and stop terrorists, once you give up that liberty, there is little to stop any governments using that information in the future for other purposes.

It would be naive to assume that all politicians now and in the future can be trusted not to abuse the huge amount of information they have access to for all sorts of other purposes.

When two of my sons, brother in law and nephew went into harms way to protect you I was very grateful for the intelligence gathered that help protect them.

Like it or not the world changed on 9/11 and changed for a long time. This global battle will take a long time and I am thankful for the actions taken to keep us safe.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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