Moment of Truth?

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#1130302 16-Sep-2014 22:11

testha:
Technofreak: Can anyone remind me what credible evidence was given last night that showed mass surveillance has been carried out on New Zealand citizens by New Zealand agencies?

What moment of truth was there? None that I could see. Snowden, Greenwald etc may have evidence and may be correct in what they say, they haven't come up with the goods in this case though, not at least so far. It's all been innuendo.

I don't have a lot of faith in politicians, but in this case I tend to think what John Key has said is correct. He has more to lose by being found out to be wrong than Snowden and Greenwald do.

If you want credible evidence why dont you ask for more transparency from your government? After all they are the ones who should know exactly what is going on.

You miss my point.

Who was it that was going to drop a bombshell in their Moment of Truth? It has nothing to do with transparency of the lack of. KDC promised some earth shattering revelations, there were none. Just smoke and mirrors and innuendo which appeared to me just crude attempt to roll John Key.

Where was the credible evidence from those that promised it?

To comment on transparency.

I expect the government does know what's going on, however I don't expect them to tell it all to me or any other member of the public.

Like it or not the world situation isn't that much different to what it was during the Second World War or any other similar conflict. In fact I'd go as far to say it's worse today as some of the "enemy" are not so obvious. It's fact of life that some things the government are involved with are not always for public consumption. Just imagine if the allies had been more open about some of the developments and intelligence they had during WWII, do you think things might have turned out the way they did?

Sure there are things that should probably be more out in the open but by and large I think we have a pretty good balance between what is and what isn't in the public domain.

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#1130308 16-Sep-2014 22:22

Technofreak:
testha:
Technofreak: Can anyone remind me what credible evidence was given last night that showed mass surveillance has been carried out on New Zealand citizens by New Zealand agencies?

What moment of truth was there? None that I could see. Snowden, Greenwald etc may have evidence and may be correct in what they say, they haven't come up with the goods in this case though, not at least so far. It's all been innuendo.

I don't have a lot of faith in politicians, but in this case I tend to think what John Key has said is correct. He has more to lose by being found out to be wrong than Snowden and Greenwald do.

If you want credible evidence why dont you ask for more transparency from your government? After all they are the ones who should know exactly what is going on.

You miss my point.

Who was it that was going to drop a bombshell in their Moment of Truth? It has nothing to do with transparency of the lack of. KDC promised some earth shattering revelations, there were none. Just smoke and mirrors and innuendo which appeared to me just crude attempt to roll John Key.

Where was the credible evidence from those that promised it.

To comment on transparency.

I expect the government does know what's going on, however I don't expect them to tell it all to me or any other member of the public.

Like it or not the world situation isn't that much different to what it was during the Second World War or any other similar conflict. In fact I'd go as far to say it's worse today as some of the "enemy" are not so obvious. It's fact of life that some things the government are involved with are not always for public consumption. Just imagine if the allies had been more open about some of the developments and intelligence they had during WWII, do you think things might have turned out the way they did?

Sure there are things that should probably be more out in the open but by and large I think we have a pretty good balance between what is and what isn't in the public domain.

Have you ever thought about that this enemy is just being exaggerated?

About 3000 people died in 9/11 in the US. A different country with a very different foreign policy. But somehow this justifies my freedoms being slowly taken away in New Zealand.

About 6000 Kiwis die every year on Diabetes and heart disease, but I can see no one declaring the War On Sugar.

Technofreak

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#1130313 16-Sep-2014 22:30

testha:
Have you ever thought about that this enemy is just being exaggerated?

About 3000 people died in 9/11 in the US. A different country with a very different foreign policy. But somehow this justifies my freedoms being slowly taken away in New Zealand.

About 6000 Kiwis die every year on Diabetes and heart disease, but I can see no one declaring the War On Sugar.

Oh so you don't think we need to keep track of people like this. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11325784

Have a good think and let us know what freedoms have been taken away from you here in New Zealand.

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#1130314 16-Sep-2014 22:30

testha:
Technofreak:
testha:
Technofreak: Can anyone remind me what credible evidence was given last night that showed mass surveillance has been carried out on New Zealand citizens by New Zealand agencies?

What moment of truth was there? None that I could see. Snowden, Greenwald etc may have evidence and may be correct in what they say, they haven't come up with the goods in this case though, not at least so far. It's all been innuendo.

I don't have a lot of faith in politicians, but in this case I tend to think what John Key has said is correct. He has more to lose by being found out to be wrong than Snowden and Greenwald do.

If you want credible evidence why dont you ask for more transparency from your government? After all they are the ones who should know exactly what is going on.

You miss my point.

Who was it that was going to drop a bombshell in their Moment of Truth? It has nothing to do with transparency of the lack of. KDC promised some earth shattering revelations, there were none. Just smoke and mirrors and innuendo which appeared to me just crude attempt to roll John Key.

Where was the credible evidence from those that promised it.

To comment on transparency.

I expect the government does know what's going on, however I don't expect them to tell it all to me or any other member of the public.

Like it or not the world situation isn't that much different to what it was during the Second World War or any other similar conflict. In fact I'd go as far to say it's worse today as some of the "enemy" are not so obvious. It's fact of life that some things the government are involved with are not always for public consumption. Just imagine if the allies had been more open about some of the developments and intelligence they had during WWII, do you think things might have turned out the way they did?

Sure there are things that should probably be more out in the open but by and large I think we have a pretty good balance between what is and what isn't in the public domain.

Have you ever thought about that this enemy is just being exaggerated?

About 3000 people died in 9/11 in the US. A different country with a very different foreign policy. But somehow this justifies my freedoms being slowly taken away in New Zealand.

About 6000 Kiwis die every year on Diabetes and heart disease, but I can see no one declaring the War On Sugar.

You are trivialising something that has taken many lives including New Zealand lives and is frankly offensive.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

testha

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Master Geek
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#1130334 16-Sep-2014 22:40

KiwiNZ:
testha:
Technofreak:
testha:
Technofreak: Can anyone remind me what credible evidence was given last night that showed mass surveillance has been carried out on New Zealand citizens by New Zealand agencies?

What moment of truth was there? None that I could see. Snowden, Greenwald etc may have evidence and may be correct in what they say, they haven't come up with the goods in this case though, not at least so far. It's all been innuendo.

I don't have a lot of faith in politicians, but in this case I tend to think what John Key has said is correct. He has more to lose by being found out to be wrong than Snowden and Greenwald do.

If you want credible evidence why dont you ask for more transparency from your government? After all they are the ones who should know exactly what is going on.

You miss my point.

Who was it that was going to drop a bombshell in their Moment of Truth? It has nothing to do with transparency of the lack of. KDC promised some earth shattering revelations, there were none. Just smoke and mirrors and innuendo which appeared to me just crude attempt to roll John Key.

Where was the credible evidence from those that promised it.

To comment on transparency.

I expect the government does know what's going on, however I don't expect them to tell it all to me or any other member of the public.

Like it or not the world situation isn't that much different to what it was during the Second World War or any other similar conflict. In fact I'd go as far to say it's worse today as some of the "enemy" are not so obvious. It's fact of life that some things the government are involved with are not always for public consumption. Just imagine if the allies had been more open about some of the developments and intelligence they had during WWII, do you think things might have turned out the way they did?

Sure there are things that should probably be more out in the open but by and large I think we have a pretty good balance between what is and what isn't in the public domain.

Have you ever thought about that this enemy is just being exaggerated?

About 3000 people died in 9/11 in the US. A different country with a very different foreign policy. But somehow this justifies my freedoms being slowly taken away in New Zealand.

About 6000 Kiwis die every year on Diabetes and heart disease, but I can see no one declaring the War On Sugar.

You are trivialising something that has taken many lives including New Zealand lives and is frankly offensive.

I wasnt my intention to offend you. I lost most of my family in the past 5 years to Diabetes. I am the oldest remaining male in my bloodline and I dont feel that old at all. I know exactly what it means to lose people you are close to and love to such a horrible thing.

testha

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Master Geek
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#1130355 16-Sep-2014 23:43

Technofreak:
testha:
Have you ever thought about that this enemy is just being exaggerated?

About 3000 people died in 9/11 in the US. A different country with a very different foreign policy. But somehow this justifies my freedoms being slowly taken away in New Zealand.

About 6000 Kiwis die every year on Diabetes and heart disease, but I can see no one declaring the War On Sugar.

Oh so you don't think we need to keep track of people like this. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11325784

Have a good think and let us know what freedoms have been taken away from you here in New Zealand.

I grew up in a dictatorship and gained most of my freedoms and rights only later in life. Just to name a few:
- Freedom of speech
- access to independent media and information
- democratic elections
- Freedom to travel the world

You got a good thing going on in here in NZ, for me this is the most beautiful country in the world with the loveliest people. I am just very worried about what is happening here lately.

I grew up with a lot of propaganda, FUD and a lot of spying. You always had to watch out what you said, you could never truly speak your mind without the fear of oppression. The government always showed us constantly how evil the enemy is to keep support alive (that damn pesky imperialists!).

And what I am hearing here is getting very similar to the propaganda I heard before. The same tactics are being used at the moment to restrict (public) information. There are secret orders and secret agreements and contracts and an pesky enemy that changes with the time and is getting used to spread fear and acceptance of new laws.

I am against mass surveillance and rather live with the really very low risk of an act of terror in NZ because I know first hand what can be done with that information. You can completely shut down any kind of opposition before they even arise, making most people believe that they are alone with their thoughts. You can use that information to blackmail other people. You can target certain people so you got all important positions in a society covered. No one can be trusted. The whole Justice system becomes a farce and innocent people get arrested and some also die/ get killed.

Being able to communicate your thoughts without any fear of oppression is one of the most important freedoms I know of. Anonymity grants me that freedom. By collecting all that data and giving access to the government you cannot trust anyone anymore. I few people here state that they dont have anything to hide. Only a very few people are as perfect as they claim. There is always something you would rather not explain to the public. With all that data collected you can direct public opinion, shutdown opposition before it arises.

The cool thing about this thread is, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Where I grew up there was only one opinion, the official one. A few of you maybe annoyed by the opposition cause you dont agree with all their stuff, but being able to have a real opposition is what makes a democracy strong.

I am really afraid of losing my gained freedoms. I mean there are now algorithms that decide after scanning my communication that my name should be added in a random database. And because of it I am on some kind of No-Fly list. And lose my right to travel to a country that I would love to visit.

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#1130356 16-Sep-2014 23:44

KiwiNZ:
turnin:
KiwiNZ:
turnin: Actually the biggest threat to NZ is not terrorism , it's people that absolutely have no concern or measure of civil liberties or history and believe everything the media tells them. Granted this is political for Kim dotcom, but it sure as hell isn't for me .

Snowdon and Assange are beyond reproach in my book, I really don't see why they would throw their lives away for brief moments of internet fame, they are doing what they are doing so that the educated in society can do something about it.

This conversation is not about monitoring known terrorists, half the NSA targets are simply not terrorists and virtually all of the data collected is not related to terrorism.
The conversations I'm hearing, a lot of people have big issues with this, and rightly so.
I don't recall giving up my right to privacy, I don't recall my business becoming an open slather for governments. The encryption argument is mute, yes encrypt everything anyway but I think it is seriously misleading to suggest that the GCSB can not decrypt, which IS what key advised when questioned during the Intelligence and Security select committee hearing into the GCSB at Parliament in 2013.

Allowing the govt to keep records on every single facet of my life and business, index them and retrieve them willy nilly when ever they see fit or fortuitous is damaging to society.

Conveniently ignored today is the fact that the documents released today by Key have absolutely nothing to do with speargun
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/15/questions-new-zealand-mass-surveillance/

Privacy and the TPP aside the public have a right to debate such issues and have the information to do so, for our own law society to have to approach the UN is a very slippery slope.

Both have committed crimes and one has yet to face up to a sexual assault charge I guess that is ok then.

Historically whistleblowers have either been killed or had manufactured charges levelled at them, interestingly, there are actually no charges levelled at Assange, despite US medias consistent misreporting he is only wanted for "Questioning" and has invited swedish police to interview him in the Embassy, oddly they have declined, you might want to look at the statements made by the two women also.
In general terms it's a "fit up" but by all means buy it hook line and sinker.

The appropriate place to decide these allegations is in a court of law.

No , he is not wanted in court, he's been asked by the police to answer their questions, you don't go to court till charges have been laid. OK ?

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#1130357 16-Sep-2014 23:59

ajobbins: That fact that every world leader exposed by Snowden to date (Bar JK) has acknowledged Snowden has been correct is more than proof enough.

I agree this is good reason to take the allegations very seriously.

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#1130358 17-Sep-2014 00:02

marmel: In fact I'll make things easy for you, this list is just in the US alone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11

Ah yes. So easy! Terrorism. Terrorism. Terrorism. Terrorism. It explains everything.

Angela Merkel - the centre right Prime Minister of Germany.

Well known terrorist?

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#1130359 17-Sep-2014 00:02

gzt:
ajobbins: That fact that every world leader exposed by Snowden to date (Bar JK) has acknowledged Snowden has been correct is more than proof enough.

I agree this is good reason to take the allegations very seriously.

Absolutely. And to be clear, I am not saying that the allegations are either true or untrue - just that based on previous correctness of those bringing the allegations, they MUST be properly looked into and scrutinised.

The media should have been having a feild day today, but there was far less coverage than I expected. Some very specific and targeted questions can now be asked, and the PM's reaction and responses should be carefully analysed.

Twitter: ajobbins

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#1130362 17-Sep-2014 00:10

ajobbins:
gzt:
ajobbins: That fact that every world leader exposed by Snowden to date (Bar JK) has acknowledged Snowden has been correct is more than proof enough.

I agree this is good reason to take the allegations very seriously.

Absolutely. And to be clear, I am not saying that the allegations are either true or untrue - just that based on previous correctness of those bringing the allegations, they MUST be properly looked into and scrutinised.

The media should have been having a feild day today, but there was far less coverage than I expected. Some very specific and targeted questions can now be asked, and the PM's reaction and responses should be carefully analysed.

Talkback radio has been more fixated on the fact that Kim dot com is fat .

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#1130364 17-Sep-2014 00:21

gzt:
marmel: In fact I'll make things easy for you, this list is just in the US alone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11

Ah yes. So easy! Terrorism. Terrorism. Terrorism. Terrorism. It explains everything.

Angela Merkel - the centre right Prime Minister of Germany.

Well known terrorist?

Sorry but your comment is completely off course.

I provided that link because another member had asked for some proof that lives had been saved from mass surveillance.

Never once did I mention the surveillance is limited to just fighting terror. It would also be very naive to think that type of surveillance is limited to the US. Pretty much guarantee every country with the capability is doing the same thing, including Germany.

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#1130369 17-Sep-2014 00:34

marmel: Never once did I mention the surveillance is limited to just fighting terror.

In hindsight I think I got carried away with all the terror terror terror comments and essentially just picked one almost at random to reply to. Sorry about that.

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#1130381 17-Sep-2014 06:22

gzt:
marmel: Never once did I mention the surveillance is limited to just fighting terror.

In hindsight I think I got carried away with all the terror terror terror comments and essentially just picked one almost at random to reply to. Sorry about that.

My view is gzt you hit the whole root cause of the argument on the head.

As Snowden and Greenwald have consistently said their issue has never been about surveillance under the threat of terrorism. Their main issue is that mass surveillance is being undertaken with the guise of terrorism. When in fact they are spying for political or commercial reasons and using terrorism is just the argument that is used to make it palatable to the general public.

If your government said "we need to spy on everyone because of terrorism" many consider that reasonable with the threat real or not that bad things can happen. Hence how the "nothing to hide nothing to fear" response comes back.

If however the government says "we need to spy on everyone because we want to hammer out the best deal for Fonterra for the next trade negotiation and steal any ideas a rival of Xero has so we can help Xero be more successful." (just pure examples taken from the air to show the significant difference between the two actions being taken.)

I suspect many would still go "nothing to hide nothing to fear"... but a whole lot more people would say "hang on you are spying for effectively commercial reasons wanting to prop up certain companies. Is this really acceptable behaviour of our spys."

Much like the CCIP. Their focus is on protecting core communications infrastructure and dealing with security responses when they occur. What does that have to do with our international spying capabilities??

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#1130386 17-Sep-2014 06:49

Just a rhetorical.

Let's say there is spying.

Let's say Winston Peters goes in power. Or any other politician you want to name, say hone.

You think they gonna say hmm, this spying started with Helen, let's abolish it and let the nz public and whole world know, for example China, that we longer spy. To do that we announce to the world we break alliance with Australia, Britain and the US politically and economically. Yay let's start cutting tax and borrow another half billion here, and chase away the Hollywood people and close the country to it's own citizens only.

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