Lauren Southern to speak in NZ

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#2069745 8-Aug-2018 11:56

Thanks to Jan Thomas, a somewhat boring guy will give an unexciting speech to a big crowd:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/106094304/don-brash-free-speech-debate-in-auckland-booms-on-back-of-masseys-brash-ban

Note:

'The topic, set months ago, just happens to be: "PC culture has gone too far to the point of limiting freedom of speech".'

So will we be questioning his motives and timing?

Or perhaps because he's politically right of centre we'll just look the other way if the minority mob causes this event to be cancelled too?

MikeAqua

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#2069860 8-Aug-2018 13:13

MikeB4:

The Massey campus is huge, the P/North campus is the size of a small town. To secure the campus would have been very difficult and expensive. Why go through all that expense and risk to allow an irelevent failed politian to desperately try to get attention. His timing in my opinion is dubious as is his motives.

Firstly is there a security threat?

Commentary in the media this morning suggested suggested that Massey's VC didn't consult with either the police or campus security. Her expertise includes tertiary education, veterinary medicine and governance (link)- no mention of expertise in VIP security.

Secondly if there is a threat presumably you don't need to lock down the entire campus. Just a particular venue plus entry and exit.

I don't buy the security issue as genuine. I'm happy to change that view should Jan Thomas reveal solid info on which she based her determination.

Mike

MikeAqua

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#2069873 8-Aug-2018 13:22

MikeB4:

His timing in my opinion is dubious .

According to Brash (on AM show today) he was invited to speak at this Massey thing months ago.

You can link to the speech notes here https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12102874

Actually an interesting read and underscores the man's depth and span of experience.

Mike

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#2070052 8-Aug-2018 14:35

I have been very forceful here in my rejection of the Canadians and those who keep trying to suggest that maybe they aren't so bad after all. The reason is because I genuinely believe they really are that bad, as are those who try to persuade others that they are not. I cannot see this as a free speech issue. I believe that people who do, are sleepwalking into danger. I believe this so strongly that I feel obligated to keep making my voice heard whenever anyone suggests otherwise.

@freitasm has just posted a couple of items on the President thread that everyone should read. They state better than I ever can exactly why I feel the way I do. I think this is extremely important. It really does need to be taken seriously.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

kryptonjohn

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#2070061 8-Aug-2018 14:46

Rikkitic:

I have been very forceful here in my rejection of the Canadians and those who keep trying to suggest that maybe they aren't so bad after all. The reason is because I genuinely believe they really are that bad, as are those who try to persuade others that they are not. I cannot see this as a free speech issue. I believe that people who do, are sleepwalking into danger. I believe this so strongly that I feel obligated to keep making my voice heard whenever anyone suggests otherwise.

@freitasm has just posted a couple of items on the President thread that everyone should read. They state better than I ever can exactly why I feel the way I do. I think this is extremely important. It really does need to be taken seriously.

... and if someone considered your opinion above to be hate speech and prevented you from saying it?

This is the difficulty here... someone has to be the arbiter and what about the rights of those that do not agree with the arbiter?

Now free speech in NZ does not allow for incitement of illegal acts. The arbiter in this case is the court. It's not me or you or Phil Goff or Jan Thomas.

So if these Canadians turned up and said stuff that you or I find offensive or extremely stupid then that's just too bad for us. We can choose to not listen anymore. However if they said something that encouraged someone to do something illegal or harmful, for instance, go kill a Muslim, then that would meet our legal hate speech threshold and they should face the consequences. I haven't listened to their stuff so don't really know if they say such things but we can't living in "Minority Report" and can't convict them of something until they do it.

Offensive is not the bar.

freitasm

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#2070063 8-Aug-2018 14:50

Two county jailers fired for comments... Let's see:

Both men were active in online gaming communities where they engaged in commentary about the games with others. In one exchange, Costner described “racism as normal” and “not a bad thing” and expressed admiration for George Rockwell, founder of the American Nazi Party.

“I’ll say this I am extremely right winged and I view racism as normal,” he said in comments posted last year to one of his YouTube videos. “Just read the definition of racism and it’s not a bad thing. That’s my own belief though. I went from being a libertarian Conservative to more Authoritarian.”

Costner also allegedly posted photos of his room showing a German Nazi flag and his profile photo on Steam, one online gaming platform, is a modified “black sun” flag favored by neo-Nazis.

Jones’ online profile on Steam included the motto, “Hitler did nothing wrong.” Jones also connected on Steam with far-right profiles including one featuring a profile picture of Dylann Roof, the convicted mass murderer in the 2015 racially motivated slaying of black churchgoers in Charleston, S.C., with a similar black sun design superimposed over it.

In an interview Monday after, Costner said he was not a neo-Nazi and did not hold racist or fascist beliefs. He said his comments about racism were misunderstood.

“By racism, I don’t mean the traditional sense. I do not hate or have any prejudices against any other races. I personally think there are differences between different races, genetically, but I hold no prejudiced views against any race and I do not believe that my race is superior,” he said. “I think every man is created equal in the eyes of God.”

He called Rockwell, an antisemitic ideologue who founded the American Nazi Party in 1959 and made common cause with the Ku Klux Klan to oppose the Civil Rights Movement, a “traditional American.” But he said he did not agree with Rockwell’s views on race.

“I would agree with him that Americans need to stay traditional to their values and morals,” he said.

He said he chose the “black sun” profile picture for his social media profile because he is engaged with a gaming group that is playing a simulation of the Waffen-SS, the military wing of the German Nazi Party.

“I chose a Germanic pagan symbol that the SS used,” he said.

However, the symbol Costner uses blends the “black sun” design with the American flag. The design was used by some alt-right activists in last year’s violent “Unite The Right” rally in Charlottesville.

“I am a traditional American Christian that’s just concerned about my country’s future,” he said.

This is no different. The "You didn't understand my comments" and the "races are different only on a genetic level, I have nothing against others" and so on. That's how they get out - trying to pass their "alternate reality" as something we don't understand.

My worry is that some people seem to perceive this as normal. Even here in New Zealand. When anyone says the alt-right is misunderstood I see someone who is trying to hide their own prejudices.

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#2070065 8-Aug-2018 14:53

Rikkitic:

@freitasm has just posted a couple of items on the President thread that everyone should read. They state better than I ever can exactly why I feel the way I do. I think this is extremely important. It really does need to be taken seriously.

This is the post.

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kryptonjohn

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#2070070 8-Aug-2018 15:07

I'm just glad we have the freedom to get up on a soap box and call Trump an idiot, even if someone else finds that opinion offensive. I would hate to think someone in a position of power would attempt to prevent this airing of one's belief on some pretext, such as it might make someone else stage a protest.

Fred99

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#2070075 8-Aug-2018 15:17

MikeAqua:

MikeB4:

The Massey campus is huge, the P/North campus is the size of a small town. To secure the campus would have been very difficult and expensive. Why go through all that expense and risk to allow an irelevent failed politian to desperately try to get attention. His timing in my opinion is dubious as is his motives.

Firstly is there a security threat?

Commentary in the media this morning suggested suggested that Massey's VC didn't consult with either the police or campus security. Her expertise includes tertiary education, veterinary medicine and governance (link)- no mention of expertise in VIP security.

Secondly if there is a threat presumably you don't need to lock down the entire campus. Just a particular venue plus entry and exit.

I don't buy the security issue as genuine. I'm happy to change that view should Jan Thomas reveal solid info on which she based her determination.

The vice chancellor is effectively equivalent to chief executive on the board (council), with governance responsibilities then for sure if there had been an injury to person or property and she'd been made aware of the risk and not taken preventative action, she'd be seriously in the gun. Of course she's not an expert in "VIP security". She may have wise to have sought expert advice, but IMO she's really being attacked for no fair reason. Safety is paramount.

As I understand it, (although I haven't read the news since this morning) the threat was made by someone from Norway on facebook, which sounds so incredibly convenient it leads me to further suspect that this whole thing was a setup to "make a point". If it was someone local then police could have done something, presumably confirming that they were dealing with a sh!t-stirring nutter and not an assassin.

Fred99

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#2070078 8-Aug-2018 15:21

kryptonjohn:

I'm just glad we have the freedom to get up on a soap box and call Trump an idiot, even if someone else finds that opinion offensive. I would hate to think someone in a position of power would attempt to prevent this airing of one's belief on some pretext, such as it might make someone else stage a protest.

Trump's having great success with that - at least with changing public sentiment. I believe a new poll shows historically unprecedented lack of belief in the media, and close to a majority of Republican voters would support granting the president power to gag the media. We are living in dangerous times for democracy.

MikeB4

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#2070084 8-Aug-2018 15:32

MikeAqua:

MikeB4:

His timing in my opinion is dubious .

According to Brash (on AM show today) he was invited to speak at this Massey thing months ago.

You can link to the speech notes here https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12102874

Actually an interesting read and underscores the man's depth and span of experience.

Surely then Massey has the right to revoke the invitation.

Rikkitic

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#2070087 8-Aug-2018 15:37

kryptonjohn:

I'm just glad we have the freedom to get up on a soap box and call Trump an idiot, even if someone else finds that opinion offensive. I would hate to think someone in a position of power would attempt to prevent this airing of one's belief on some pretext, such as it might make someone else stage a protest.

What you and others just don't seem to get is that it isn't an all or nothing thing. It isn't something easily identifiable, like someone saying something that can get them banned or jailed. It is a gradual, insidious process, a subtle chipping away, an ongoing bending of norms, a continuous seductive whisper to persuade people that it is no big deal. Hitler did not march in and take over. He did it in stages, a little at a time, nothing too outrageous in itself, nothing to set off any alarms except in a few people who could see what was coming.

The issue is not if the Canadians or anyone else says or does anything illegal. The issue is the constant drip drip of poisonous thoughts that eat away at behavioural norms, that make things acceptable that were once thought outrageous. This is what is happening right now in America. It is what happened in nazi Germany. It is what could happen here or anywhere else that people fall for fake 'free speech' arguments.

People who think this is no big deal should talk to the frog in the slowly boiling pan of water. By the time you know you are in trouble, it is already too late. Read that link. If you can't understand what it is saying, then you are already lost.

And no, this has nothing to do with Brash being denied the right to speak. That was just a stupid call by a silly person. There are a lot of those around.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

kryptonjohn

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#2070088 8-Aug-2018 15:39

MikeB4:

MikeAqua:

MikeB4:

His timing in my opinion is dubious .

According to Brash (on AM show today) he was invited to speak at this Massey thing months ago.

You can link to the speech notes here https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12102874

Actually an interesting read and underscores the man's depth and span of experience.

Surely then Massey has the right to revoke the invitation.

It wasn't Jan Thomas that invited him. It was a student organisation so... no, not on the apparently spurious justification she used.

It really surprises me that people here think it's OK for Jan Thomas to arbitrarily cancel Brash's speaking engagement for the reasons cited. It's a university! They are supposed to deal with differing views, not prevent them.

MikeB4

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#2070089 8-Aug-2018 15:42

kryptonjohn:

MikeB4:

MikeAqua:

MikeB4:

His timing in my opinion is dubious .

According to Brash (on AM show today) he was invited to speak at this Massey thing months ago.

You can link to the speech notes here https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12102874

Actually an interesting read and underscores the man's depth and span of experience.

Surely then Massey has the right to revoke the invitation.

It wasn't Jan Thomas that invited him. It was a student organisation so... no, not on the apparently spurious justification she used.

It really surprises me that people here think it's OK for Jan Thomas to arbitrarily cancel Brash's speaking engagement for the reasons cited. It's a university! They are supposed to deal with differing views, not prevent them.

The student body does not run the University.

Fred99

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#2070092 8-Aug-2018 15:45

kryptonjohn:

MikeB4:

MikeAqua:

MikeB4:

His timing in my opinion is dubious .

According to Brash (on AM show today) he was invited to speak at this Massey thing months ago.

You can link to the speech notes here https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12102874

Actually an interesting read and underscores the man's depth and span of experience.

Surely then Massey has the right to revoke the invitation.

It wasn't Jan Thomas that invited him. It was a student organisation so... no, not on the apparently spurious justification she used.

It really surprises me that people here think it's OK for Jan Thomas to arbitrarily cancel Brash's speaking engagement for the reasons cited. It's a university! They are supposed to deal with differing views, not prevent them.

I've covered that in a post above. She'd probably have little choice but to cancel the performance if it was the boys from the rugby club performing swan lake in tutus, if she'd been made aware that there was risk to life.

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