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Forums › Politics › Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections
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  #1696957 31-Dec-2016 23:15
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freitasm:

 

Funny that the only couple of reports of "voter fraud" were Trump supporters trying to vote twice. One of the reasons this person gave was "she voted twice because she was afraid her vote for Donald Trump would be changed to a vote for Hillary Clinton." (The Guardian).

 

 

 

 

I did notice news last week that in the UK they are now so concerned about voter fraud that ID documents will be required for voting. Whether it transposes to the US I don't know but it seems perfectly possible.





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  #1696959 31-Dec-2016 23:41
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Bizzare. I only checked one source and it said passports or drivers licences. If that's true they will have to change it. Some enormous % of UK does not have or need a DL. An effect of high density in many areas.

Same high density areas probably. Yeah this is going to cause problems for sure. Unbelievable.

Edit: removed link to an article. Posting too late at night to read it properly and check sources.

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  #1696967 1-Jan-2017 02:10
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Please pardon me if this post comes off a little Grrr but, someone tripped a trigger with an incredibly poor comment.

 

The thing that tickles me about external perspectives on politics is listening to a bunch of folks rattle about things which they obviously know very little about :)  Unfortunately, you can't tell them that today's world because they will take it personally and get completely bent out of shape.

 

I have to ask this again.... Are any of you actually American by birth... lived there, voted there, traveled around and gotten to know the various regions and the little idiosyncrasies which set each region apart from the others?  Have any of you ever studied under the higher education system in the US at schools such as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Rice, UCLA, etc.?  The reason I ask is, the vast majority of posts in this section reflect an ongoing diatribe of parrot-speak that you can find almost verbatim on a multitude of other sites around the world.  Most of this can be attributed to things people have picked up from the media hype-cycle and/or have heard espoused repeatedly by others.  To challenge this mode in a polite manner, I asked 3 or 4 times for anyone to substantiate certain claims by means of authoritative sources.  However, not a single soul has offered one farthing's worth of professional or scholarly referencing.  To those who link media and social networking posts... trust me... these places are not where you want to get your education.  And for God's sake.. citing Fact-checker :)  Really?  HAHAHAHAHA  Do you know who and what "Fact-Checker" is?  At best, their one step above "Snopes" and surely you know that Snopes is a simple "mom and pop shop" run by a married couple who have absolutely no research credentials behind them.  Sometimes it helps to qualify your source to determine if whether or not they have an agenda.  :)  If you doubt any of this... just go back to page 1 of this thread and read all the "learned" predictions :)   Pffft... Great work there!  It looks more like the Psychic Friend's Network  :)   In layman terms, start thinking for yourself.  This isn't about Trump, Obama, Clinton, Carson, or any of the other members of the broke down palace.  It's about getting people off the titty of ignorance and onto the titty of critical thinking.  Yeah, it's time to throw another book at you... Read Freakanomics.  It will teach you how to analyse circumstances from multiple vantage points.

 

When you guys say Americans are this... Americans are that... Americans are all screwed up yada, yada, yada...  Only in America... You should really take a step back and look at our own country.  It's a wonderful place but, we too have our own set of problems that we are often inclined to sweep under the rug and ignore.  There is a lot of poverty here and the gap is widening.  We may not see it (or choose to see it) now but, it's coming.  Automation, streamlining, and optimisation against the backdrop of Artificial Intelligence and Cognitive Computing WILL eventually create a surplus of labour as more people are born, fewer people die, and immigration rates remain constant.  If we willfully remain ignorant and uneducated, then we will either run at 25% efficiency of our potential or we will see even more foreigners flock in and take the good jobs.  Basically, what will be left for us will to learn how to properly enunciate the phrase, "Would like Orignial or Crispy", while sticking our heads out at the local "Kiwi" Fried Chicken drive through.  For some reason, we seem to pride ourselves on being ignorant.

 

Do you also realise that the "Kiwi" identity is slowly being diluted as a result of the influx of foreigners immigrating here.  Bear in mind that one doesn't simply pack their bags and immigrate to NZ.  You have to have something of value to offer or meet the criteria of a refugee.  So, people can't just immigrate here and take jobs that can be filled by the Kiwi labour force.  The government doesn't tolerate it at all.  The sheer number of people who get rejected is staggering.  So look around at all the Yoppies, Yanks, Canooks, Pomes, Aussies, Indians, Asians, etc., and ask yourself why are all these people here?  Well, bluntly stated, Kiwis don't put a lot of emphasis on higher education at the family level and you surely don't see organisations insisting on advanced qualifications.  The result of this is that the organisational maturity level is very low.  On the CMMI level, very few organisations even rate a 2.  Basically, this equates to say that both the public and private sector will continue to flounder like fish out of water. Even now, if you know where a person is from, there is a good chance you will know how to approach them to get the best results.  If it's a fellow Kiwi, you know there's a 50/50 chance that you will get a direct answer without having to invoke a series of useless meetings.  There's a even a really good chance you will get "grin f*cked".  Even if you are lucky, you won't find many of us willing to make a decision without first obtaining a collective consensus.  Well, let me tell you; decisioneering and design by committee are the sorriest forms of management known to man.  When you water down a solution, a resolution, or an organisational directive, you have effectively implemented the least common denominator.  In short, a "thing" that nobody will be happy with and will typically fail under pressure.  Come to think about it, I don't recall seeing one organisation conduct cost-benefit analyses based on statistical research.  Everything here is based on somebody's "gut feeling".  There is a large number of people occupying management roles that know absolutely F* all about what they are doing.  Granted, companies are staying afloat, people have jobs, the economy is thriving but, there is a huge gap between the status quo and actually what could be achieved.  The lesson in this... educate your kids or watch the foreigners continue to flock in here.

 

So... easy on the name calling and the labeling, boys and girls.  It's a badge of ignorance and one of the leading contributors to all the dissension in the world today.

 

Here... read this.  Expand your horizons.  Just maybe you will discover where your logic is flawed and you can learn how to fix it.  http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/engl1311/fallacies.htm

 

Ok.. there you have it!  I'm sure the keyboards will be clicking on this one.  Again, it may sound inflammatory but it's really not.  Calmly look at what I am saying.  Or.. click "QUOTE" and proceed to rip me a new one :)

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  #1696969 1-Jan-2017 02:45
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frankv:

 

We don't live and breathe by corporate success; if Sony-Time-Warner or Disney disappeared without trace, no-one is going to die. The trickle-down effect has been well and truly debunked... giving tax cuts to corporations and the wealthy does not improve the lot of anyone but the wealthy. 

 

Fundamentally, when a rich person gets richer, the wealth is removed from the economy. They save the money, or buy assets & toys (land, superyachts, yachts, cars) with no return to the economy. When a poor person gets richer, they spend it and the economy improves. If, instead of buying a superyacht, Graham Hart had spent his $700M in NZ, or it had been distributed amongst the NZ population via tax cuts and wage increases, we would all (except Graham Hart) be better off.

 

Actually, what we should be looking for is more leisure time... that's an economic benefit that could be given to the middle classes that would create jobs.

 

 

Let's use your logic to rip into this :)

 

1: Right... nobody would die as a direct result of those organisations disappearing but, that is also a non-sequitur statement and completely irrelevant as a rebuttal against the context you are arguing.  However, if those organisations did disappear, how many people would lose their jobs?  If any of those people need that income to support a family member undergoing medical treatment then indirectly, it is plausible that somebody could die.  Now assume that all the major corporations disappeared and were replaced by little "mom and pop" shops.  What would the economy look like?  :)  Sure.. one, two, ten, fifty, can go away but, as the size or number increases, you can wager your magic decoder ring that there is indeed an impact on the economy.  A number of the major international firms made a bunch of people redundant all at the same time.  They didn't go away - they simply downsized.  What was the impact on the economy?

 

2a: ...wealth removed from the economy.  You are generalising by providing a minimal list of goods which may indeed fit your contextual argument but, it is a blanket statement upon which you assert a definitive outcome across all other items that could potentially be included in your list.  Incidentally, not all rich people horde their money.  Many of them buy all manner of goods and someone benefits from the manufacturing and sale of those goods.  For example, the purchase of a yacht is revenue to the yacht dealer.  Therefore, all of the people were paid for their involvement in the building and selling of that yacht.  Considering we are talking about a yacht, the bill of materials that would go into that is quite extensive and probably inclusive all the way the back the raw materials.  A whole lot of people would benefit from that. As a result, the economy was indeed stimulated in the yacht sales space. 

 

2b: Assuming a poor person becomes rich, they have just become a rich person.  This immediately disqualifies your previous statement which states that rich people do not feed back into the economy for the reasons you provided.  Are we suggesting that the status quo rich are of a different ilk than the nouveau riche?  How long must the nouveau riche remain nouveau riche before they can be qualified as status quo rich?  Okay, do you see where this is going?  :)  It might sound logical in your head but, when you put it to paper, it does not hold water, mate.

 

3: Leisure time is an economic benefit?  You mean like "Let's all take off an extra day each week and go spend some money"?  Gee, I wonder what the impact of that would be on the economy :)  I'm guessing you are suggesting this is company paid leisure time?  If not then every day that I am not investing, I am consuming and someone else is benefiting from that consumption.  What kind of jobs would that create?  By all means, help me out here. :)

 

 

 

 

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  #1696970 1-Jan-2017 03:01
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Fred99

 

@blakamin gave you an easy link on the previous page:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+lies

 

Take your pick - amongst the millions of results there are some partisan sites for sure, plenty of neutral sites, few "alt:right" sites though.

 

Please don't accuse me of lying again.  Speak for yourself - don't include me in your "royal we".

 

I assume you're talking about "manners" etc and "white lies" - where for example if Trump asked me "how are you" I'd probably reply "very well thank you" even though I felt like puking.

 

White lies are by definition harmless and trivial.  Trump's lies are malicious and serious.

 

 

My apologies if that offends you mate but, every man, woman, and child, walking or who has ever walked this earth, has lied.  And no, if it's is not truth, it is a lie, regardless of the scale.  If you recall logic "truth tables" from school, you would know that if any part of a statement is false, it renders the entirety of the statement false.

 

Obviously, the next question should be; if you ever lied once, does that make you a liar?  If not, what is the line of demarcation that determines, "Woops, ah well, you crossed the threshold.  You are now officially a liar".

 

...and of course, do we have a clear-cut, black and white definition of what a wee little harmless white lie looks like?  What's the threshold for that?

 

A lie, is a lie, is a lie... regardless of magnitude.

 

Oh, and if we're going to post articles, let me throw on in there.  It has references and everything but, I'll wager you will discredit it because of the source.

 

https://assets.donaldjtrump.com/HillaryClintonLies.pdf

 

It's actually a really good read :)

 

Both of these types of references are incredibly poor because the likelihood of the source having an agenda is quite high.  Therefore, they are not exactly credible.

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  #1696972 1-Jan-2017 03:08
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I'm gunna need some of this weed that this dude is smoking...

*May be a lie depends on who you ask or voted for apparently*

JimsonWeed
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  #1696974 1-Jan-2017 03:31
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Fred99:

 

I assume you're talking about "manners" etc and "white lies" - where for example if Trump asked me "how are you" I'd probably reply "very well thank you" even though I felt like puking.

 

 

I enjoy these kinds of philosophical discussions :)

 

That, my friend, would be a lie if that situation ever presented itself and you responded as you indicated you would.  The other day, you said, "I don't lie - prove it".  There is no way anyone could ever prove it so long as you have the ability to claim, "Oh, I was just being polite".  You could invoke that claim at any time so, what is the benchmark of measure?  Perhaps we use a clear logic baseline; Irrespective of magnitude, if a statement is not completely true, then it is false.  Applying that measure, if sometimes you respond falsely as a means of exercising manners, you would eventually convict yourself.

 

If we go with the more nebulous, floating standard of the "manners" disclaimer then hell, we would have a hard time proving Trump OR Hillary ever lied  :)  Our tolerance thresholds governing "manners" would probably never be equal.  That sure would booger up the legal system if we used that standard  :)   Rest assured that in a court... the lawyers would force you to concede that even though something is generally recognised as a "white lie" for the sake of preserving peace, it is in fact still a lie.

 

Personally, I could care less about who lied about what.  It's the impact of any lie that I believe is most important.  Of course that opens up the door to start a whole new thread to discuss people's opinions on the impacts of the various lies.  :)

 

 

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  #1696975 1-Jan-2017 03:32
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blakamin: I'm gunna need some of this weed that this dude is smoking...

*May be a lie depends on who you ask or voted for apparently*

 

Huh?

frankv
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  #1697025 1-Jan-2017 09:07
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JimsonWeed:

 

I have to ask this again.... Are any of you actually American by birth... lived there, voted there, traveled around and gotten to know the various regions and the little idiosyncrasies which set each region apart from the others?  Have any of you ever studied under the higher education system in the US at schools such as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Rice, UCLA, etc.?

 

Is everyone else excluded from the discussion then?

 

The reason I ask is, the vast majority of posts in this section reflect an ongoing diatribe of parrot-speak that you can find almost verbatim on a multitude of other sites around the world.  Most of this can be attributed to things people have picked up from the media hype-cycle and/or have heard espoused repeatedly by others. 

 

Could it be that all these people are right, even though it offends your preconceptions? Rather than posting a baseless rant, I suggest that *you* should (if you can) post evidence to rebut them and educate us.

 

 

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  #1697029 1-Jan-2017 09:30
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JimsonWeed:

 

 

 

 

 

Do you also realise that the "Kiwi" identity is slowly being diluted as a result of the influx of foreigners immigrating here. 

 

 

Damn it Jimson - the master race is under threat eh?

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  #1697031 1-Jan-2017 09:34
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JimsonWeed:

Please pardon me if this post comes off a little Grrr but, someone tripped a trigger with an incredibly poor comment.


Maybe it would be better to reply to that post?

Fred99
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  #1697032 1-Jan-2017 09:38
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JimsonWeed:

 

Fred99:

 

I assume you're talking about "manners" etc and "white lies" - where for example if Trump asked me "how are you" I'd probably reply "very well thank you" even though I felt like puking.

 

 

I enjoy these kinds of philosophical discussions :)

 

That, my friend, would be a lie if that situation ever presented itself and you responded as you indicated you would.  The other day, you said, "I don't lie - prove it".  There is no way anyone could ever prove it so long as you have the ability to claim, "Oh, I was just being polite".  You could invoke that claim at any time so, what is the benchmark of measure?  Perhaps we use a clear logic baseline; Irrespective of magnitude, if a statement is not completely true, then it is false.  Applying that measure, if sometimes you respond falsely as a means of exercising manners, you would eventually convict yourself.

 

If we go with the more nebulous, floating standard of the "manners" disclaimer then hell, we would have a hard time proving Trump OR Hillary ever lied  :)  Our tolerance thresholds governing "manners" would probably never be equal.  That sure would booger up the legal system if we used that standard  :)   Rest assured that in a court... the lawyers would force you to concede that even though something is generally recognised as a "white lie" for the sake of preserving peace, it is in fact still a lie.

 

Personally, I could care less about who lied about what.  It's the impact of any lie that I believe is most important.  Of course that opens up the door to start a whole new thread to discuss people's opinions on the impacts of the various lies.  :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

You've selectively quoted me above, leaving out:

 

White lies are by definition harmless and trivial.  Trump's lies are malicious and serious.

 

 

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  #1697034 1-Jan-2017 09:47
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gzt:
JimsonWeed:

 

Please pardon me if this post comes off a little Grrr but, someone tripped a trigger with an incredibly poor comment.

 


Maybe it would be better to reply to that post?

 

 

 

The post where "jimson" attempts to discredit all opinion contrary to his own by making bold statements about how uneducated we all are?

 

 

gzt

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  #1697036 1-Jan-2017 09:53
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JimsonWeed:

blakamin: I'm gunna need some of this weed that this dude is smoking...

*May be a lie depends on who you ask or voted for apparently*


Huh?


I Interpreted the first paragraph to mean that your posts are very long and digressive and contain multiple tracks tangential to the topic.

For instance, from your previous post we learned that immigration is the cause of more meeting requests.

Lastly, in a previous post you asked for some references that were acceptable to you and freitasm responded with a graph from the US Bureau of Statistics. You appeared to ignore that post enitrely and did not comment on it. Then in a subsequent post you are asking for references again.

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  #1697041 1-Jan-2017 09:59
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Fred99:

 

JimsonWeed:

 

Fred99:

 

I assume you're talking about "manners" etc and "white lies" - where for example if Trump asked me "how are you" I'd probably reply "very well thank you" even though I felt like puking.

 

 

I enjoy these kinds of philosophical discussions :)

 

That, my friend, would be a lie if that situation ever presented itself and you responded as you indicated you would.  The other day, you said, "I don't lie - prove it".  There is no way anyone could ever prove it so long as you have the ability to claim, "Oh, I was just being polite".  You could invoke that claim at any time so, what is the benchmark of measure?  Perhaps we use a clear logic baseline; Irrespective of magnitude, if a statement is not completely true, then it is false.  Applying that measure, if sometimes you respond falsely as a means of exercising manners, you would eventually convict yourself.

 

If we go with the more nebulous, floating standard of the "manners" disclaimer then hell, we would have a hard time proving Trump OR Hillary ever lied  :)  Our tolerance thresholds governing "manners" would probably never be equal.  That sure would booger up the legal system if we used that standard  :)   Rest assured that in a court... the lawyers would force you to concede that even though something is generally recognised as a "white lie" for the sake of preserving peace, it is in fact still a lie.

 

Personally, I could care less about who lied about what.  It's the impact of any lie that I believe is most important.  Of course that opens up the door to start a whole new thread to discuss people's opinions on the impacts of the various lies.  :)

 

 

You've selectively quoted me above, leaving out:

 

White lies are by definition harmless and trivial.  Trump's lies are malicious and serious.

 

 

Uh, yeah because, the focus of my post was on a particular component. If I quote the Bible, should I include all 66 chapters?  :)

 

Anyhow, you said "I don't lie" and I just showed that by definition of what a lie is, if you conduct yourself as you stated you would, you would in fact be telling a lie.  So again, point proven.  We all lie.  Whether it is a white lie, a bald-face lie, a black-lie, it doesn't matter.  A lie, is a lie, is a lie.  You said "prove it".  To that end, I just proved the condition.

 

 

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