Jacinda Ardern - our new PM

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Networkn
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#1904408 20-Nov-2017 11:36

I've said this before, if major reports say it's not safe, and they send people in and they are injured or die, the top 3 from the party in power should step down (and face charges). They won't, they will squirm their way out of it. There should be no option to move the blame.

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#1904416 20-Nov-2017 11:46

networkn:

I've said this before, if major reports say it's not safe, and they send people in and they are injured or die, the top 3 from the party in power should step down (and face charges). They won't, they will squirm their way out of it. There should be no option to move the blame.

I agree. But what are these major reports? What about the mining manager with the many international mining experts saying it can be done safely and quickly? This tells me that one side is lying. Its either reports that it is not safe or its reports that it is

networkn

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#1904423 20-Nov-2017 11:53

tdgeek:

networkn:

I've said this before, if major reports say it's not safe, and they send people in and they are injured or die, the top 3 from the party in power should step down (and face charges). They won't, they will squirm their way out of it. There should be no option to move the blame.

I agree. But what are these major reports? What about the mining manager with the many international mining experts saying it can be done safely and quickly? This tells me that one side is lying. Its either reports that it is not safe or its reports that it is

Regardless, sending down live people to recover the remains (of which most experts agree there will be mostly ash and not much else) is negligent and reckless. Even if one report says it's too risky, they shouldn't even consider it. It's huge money, it's massive people resources and we have other things for the living which should be the higher priority.

As I have mentioned before, I *really* feel for those families, it's a tragedy, however, I think grief is affecting logic. It's normal that this is the case, but it's the responsibility of those who are logical to not feed the emotions of the families and help them understand that surely *any* risk is too great.

I do understand that part of their motivation, is that they feel someone lied about the safety of the mine and they want justice for their dead loved ones, however, it seems unreasonable (to me) to risk the safety of innocent rescue and recovery staff to obtain that. (Even if they are willing and volunteer). I'd like to think I'd feel the same way if it were my uncle, brother or father down there. The money should be spent on a nice memorial and in support of the families in their lives going forward.

Rikkitic

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#1904424 20-Nov-2017 11:54

networkn:

I've said this before, if major reports say it's not safe, and they send people in and they are injured or die, the top 3 from the party in power should step down (and face charges). They won't, they will squirm their way out of it. There should be no option to move the blame.

This I agree with in principle. But if people choose to go in in spite of known risks, and are allowed to, and the risks are understood and accepted by those who go, then they are doing it with eyes open and must accept responsibility for their own fate.

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networkn

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#1904467 20-Nov-2017 11:59

Rikkitic:

networkn:

I've said this before, if major reports say it's not safe, and they send people in and they are injured or die, the top 3 from the party in power should step down (and face charges). They won't, they will squirm their way out of it. There should be no option to move the blame.

This I agree with in principle. But if people choose to go in in spite of known risks, and are allowed to, and the risks are understood and accepted by those who go, then they are doing it with eyes open and must accept responsibility for their own fate.

What about their families? Will the taxpayer then pay for recovery of those people? What about support financial and resources spent in dealing with the aftermath? Labours speciality is intervening (nanny state) in peoples lives (Even you can admit that) and they, and other governments have put so many workplace protections in, waiving it for this, would be completely contradictory.

The law currently prevents it. They will have to repeal the current laws to allow for this. It's an unacceptable use of taxpayers resources (political time and money) for what gain? Will the country be more productive, will justice be done and we can all sleep better at night?

Rikkitic

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#1904472 20-Nov-2017 12:05

networkn:

Regardless, sending down live people to recover the remains (of which most experts agree there will be mostly ash and not much else) is negligent and reckless. Even if one report says it's too risky, they shouldn't even consider it. It's huge money, it's massive people resources and we have other things for the living which should be the higher priority.

As I have mentioned before, I *really* feel for those families, it's a tragedy, however, I think grief is affecting logic. It's normal that this is the case, but it's the responsibility of those who are logical to not feed the emotions of the families and help them understand that surely *any* risk is too great.

I do understand that part of their motivation, is that they feel someone lied about the safety of the mine and they want justice for their dead loved ones, however, it seems unreasonable (to me) to risk the safety of innocent rescue and recovery staff to obtain that. (Even if they are willing and volunteer). I'd like to think I'd feel the same way if it were my uncle, brother or father down there. The money should be spent on a nice memorial and in support of the families in their lives going forward.

I am not into conspiracy theories, but I think part of the cloud still hanging over this is the suspicion that maybe some miners survived, at least initially, and could in principle have been rescued and certain parties are desperate to cover this up. I suspect the families are driven as much by a desire to know once and for all what actually happened down there as by grief. Entering the drift might bring some certainty.

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#1904473 20-Nov-2017 12:06

I would prefer if the Government admitted they were mistaken during the election and not go in than to stubbornly continue and put more lives at risk should their current advice be that they should not re-enter the mine.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

networkn

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#1904481 20-Nov-2017 12:12

MikeB4:

I would prefer if the Government admitted they were mistaken during the election and not go in than to stubbornly continue and put more lives at risk should their current advice be that they should not re-enter the mine.

If they were "mistaken" should someone be held to account for that "mistake". Even if this was National, I'd expect one of the top ministers to step down as a result, they mislead the public in my view.

Just like with lots of stuff, Labour spoke before they had all the facts and will possibly now have made a wound even more raw for the families.

Rikkitic

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#1904482 20-Nov-2017 12:13

networkn:

What about their families? Will the taxpayer then pay for recovery of those people? What about support financial and resources spent in dealing with the aftermath? Labours speciality is intervening (nanny state) in peoples lives (Even you can admit that) and they, and other governments have put so many workplace protections in, waiving it for this, would be completely contradictory.

The law currently prevents it. They will have to repeal the current laws to allow for this. It's an unacceptable use of taxpayers resources (political time and money) for what gain? Will the country be more productive, will justice be done and we can all sleep better at night?

I get your point but if people are willing to accept the risk in full knowledge of what it is and go in anyway, then that should be up to them. Our society accepts mountaineers and base jumpers and free divers and other risk-takers and I don't see a fundamental difference here. Some take risks for recreational thrills, others to possibly help ease someone's pain. What is the difference? It is up to the risk-taker.

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networkn

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#1904484 20-Nov-2017 12:14

Rikkitic:

networkn:

Regardless, sending down live people to recover the remains (of which most experts agree there will be mostly ash and not much else) is negligent and reckless. Even if one report says it's too risky, they shouldn't even consider it. It's huge money, it's massive people resources and we have other things for the living which should be the higher priority.

As I have mentioned before, I *really* feel for those families, it's a tragedy, however, I think grief is affecting logic. It's normal that this is the case, but it's the responsibility of those who are logical to not feed the emotions of the families and help them understand that surely *any* risk is too great.

I do understand that part of their motivation, is that they feel someone lied about the safety of the mine and they want justice for their dead loved ones, however, it seems unreasonable (to me) to risk the safety of innocent rescue and recovery staff to obtain that. (Even if they are willing and volunteer). I'd like to think I'd feel the same way if it were my uncle, brother or father down there. The money should be spent on a nice memorial and in support of the families in their lives going forward.

I am not into conspiracy theories, but I think part of the cloud still hanging over this is the suspicion that maybe some miners survived, at least initially, and could in principle have been rescued and certain parties are desperate to cover this up. I suspect the families are driven as much by a desire to know once and for all what actually happened down there as by grief. Entering the drift might bring some certainty.

Even if they survived the initial blast, it was most definitely not safe in the first week or more to go into the mine, and the risk would have been extreme. I can't imagine the agony the families would feel considering those scenarios.

What motivation would there have been from the government to not act if it was safe?

MikeB4

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#1904486 20-Nov-2017 12:15

networkn:

MikeB4:

I would prefer if the Government admitted they were mistaken during the election and not go in than to stubbornly continue and put more lives at risk should their current advice be that they should not re-enter the mine.

If they were "mistaken" should someone be held to account for that "mistake". Even if this was National, I'd expect one of the top ministers to step down as a result, they mislead the public in my view.

Just like with lots of stuff, Labour spoke before they had all the facts and will possibly now have made a wound even more raw for the families.

No, as they were not Ministers at the time.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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networkn

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#1904487 20-Nov-2017 12:19

Rikkitic:

networkn:

What about their families? Will the taxpayer then pay for recovery of those people? What about support financial and resources spent in dealing with the aftermath? Labours speciality is intervening (nanny state) in peoples lives (Even you can admit that) and they, and other governments have put so many workplace protections in, waiving it for this, would be completely contradictory.

The law currently prevents it. They will have to repeal the current laws to allow for this. It's an unacceptable use of taxpayers resources (political time and money) for what gain? Will the country be more productive, will justice be done and we can all sleep better at night?

I get your point but if people are willing to accept the risk in full knowledge of what it is and go in anyway, then that should be up to them. Our society accepts mountaineers and base jumpers and free divers and other risk-takers and I don't see a fundamental difference here. Some take risks for recreational thrills, others to possibly help ease someone's pain. What is the difference? It is up to the risk-taker.

So if the risk taker has a young family who relies on their financial and other types of support and that person dies or is grievously injured and requires massive and expensive (potentially long term) medical attention, would you expect the taxpayer to pickup the tab for that ?

Obviously, that is one worst case scenarios.

Even if they go in knowing the risks, and come out with both remains and rescuers intact, does that justify the risk, money, time and resources? I don't think it does. It wouldn't prove a report stating it was too risky, wrong, it could simply have been luck on the day. If they had gone in 2 months ago, maybe not a good result. Too much risk, too little reward. It's not as if they are going to recover a magic artifact that will solve clean energy, or the cure for cancer.

networkn

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#1904488 20-Nov-2017 12:20

MikeB4:

networkn:

MikeB4:

I would prefer if the Government admitted they were mistaken during the election and not go in than to stubbornly continue and put more lives at risk should their current advice be that they should not re-enter the mine.

If they were "mistaken" should someone be held to account for that "mistake". Even if this was National, I'd expect one of the top ministers to step down as a result, they mislead the public in my view.

Just like with lots of stuff, Labour spoke before they had all the facts and will possibly now have made a wound even more raw for the families.

No, as they were not Ministers at the time.

The ministers at the time accepted the reports they were presented with.

The non-ministers, clearly without all the facts, made statements and promises in order to be elected. Would they have been elected without it? Who knows. It would require consequences in my opinion.

MikeB4

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#1904490 20-Nov-2017 12:23

networkn:

The ministers at the time accepted the reports they were presented with.

The non-ministers, clearly without all the facts, made statements and promises in order to be elected. Would they have been elected without it? Who knows. It would require consequences in my opinion.

There were hundreds of policy statements during the election, it is silly to say one of them was to get them elected.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MikeB4

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#1904491 20-Nov-2017 12:24

Reading this thread I am sure if the ABs lose to Wales next weekend it will be Jacinda Arnerns fault.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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