Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections

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Forums › Politics › Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections

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gzt

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#1770949 26-Apr-2017 21:56

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Fred99:
joker97: Surely KJU is 120% bad on the badness scale.

Or perhaps you mean he is not a bad person, just categorically insane.

I suspect it's all show/bravado, intent on keeping his subjects and millions of soldiers etc loyal - to believe they can win. Not much fun being in the army if you're on the side that's going to be wiped out, which is exactly what will happen if there's conflict. Eventually that is - as they surely could unleash hell on (at least) South Korea in very short order.

It is a very effective strategy. That is exactly why there have been no American strikes on North Korea. Like it or not, it is exactly the same as the cold war strategy used by the great powers.

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#1770963 26-Apr-2017 22:17

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Western civilisation are afraid of being killed because there is no afterlife.

Who says KJU or his people are afraid of death? Death could quite possibly be only the beginning of their eternal life.

Why do you think ISIS and all that have gone before them are so able? The westerners just don't get it.

gzt

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#1770964 26-Apr-2017 22:20

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tdgeek:
Fred99:
tdgeek:
Dratsab:

tdgeek:
Dratsab:

tdgeek: Best he allows himself to accept that no one is interested in invading his country, so he can begin running it for his people. Rather than using that as an excuse.

Ha ha ha ha ha... While that's really funny, don't give up your day job :-)

What's so funny? That he should accept that no one has any interest in invading NK or that the US does have a clear desire to attack?

That KJU could even conceive of not having an enemy and thus go about running the country "for the people".

I agree fully. Talks, agreement, adherence,unification, never happen. My last response was not so much tongue in cheek, maybe it was, but it's what would succeed, but it won't happen.

I agree with that partly. There are preconditions to unification (China don't want a US-centric united Korea on their border, US don't want to lose Korea as a foothold - they have about 30,000 armed services stationed there). Those conditions make it very difficult for DPRK to negotiate - and probably quite cynical about any process - unless it could be negotiated between the two Koreas without outside pressure.

It's not a "black and white" situation where KJU = 100% bad, Uncle Sam = 100% good. It's complex - and a military "solution" isn't going to be a solution at all. Time is running out on the nuclear issue too - I don't believe that DPRK have "thermonuclear" weapons, but they do have fission bombs - but limited plutonium production. In some ways it's good when they conduct a test, as each test probably uses about 1/2 their annual plutonium production. More of a worry (IMO) is their unknown chemical and biological weapon programme and stockpiles. So I hear, they had a site in the North of DPRK a "pesticide" factory, and supposedly producing bacillus thuringiensis for use as an insecticide. It seems quite probable that the factory could be producing anthrax spores. We know for sure they have VX - they just used some in Malaysia. There's some obvious concern about DPRK's ballistic missiles. Cold comfort for the people of South Korea, if in the event of war, DPRK could rain down chemical and biological weapons on South Korea using artillery, and there's nothing which could stop them.

Discussion / negotiation is the only way the Korea problem will be solved without tragedy.

Fair points. I don't feel the US wants a war despite the USA and/or Trump red button hysteria. For everyone it's a no win scenario. Everyone knows that.

N K is the one to make a difference as they are the aggressive party, and under false pretenses in that the US hasn't been waiting for 60 years for war. If NK wishes to be silly and get hit with sanctions that's their problem but they have upped the ante to nuclear threats, which causes the West to have to think long and hard about actions, as compared to NK just being dicks. If they can be convinced, or underwritten by PRC with cooperation from the US that they aren't waiting for war, and war is only in their heads, then yes, progress could be made. What I come back to is what does he do with the people that are under his force and control, if there are better relations with SK. He is a dictator who has coerced and lied to his people, who are scared of him. He can't afford for them to have any freedom. Otherwise they will walk. Now that would be a wonderful outcome.

There were many opportunities for USA to halt or vastly slow the pace of nuclear weapons development in North Korea. Instead USA prioritised the slow destruction of the DPRK. That strategy appears to have led to vastly increased misery and hunger in NK and has not slowed weapons development. The strategy is essentially a failure.

You are advocating a continuation of this failed strategy, which can only cause more hardship for ordinary North Koreans. What is the point of that?

tdgeek

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#1770966 26-Apr-2017 22:24

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gzt:
Fred99:
joker97: Surely KJU is 120% bad on the badness scale.

Or perhaps you mean he is not a bad person, just categorically insane.

I suspect it's all show/bravado, intent on keeping his subjects and millions of soldiers etc loyal - to believe they can win. Not much fun being in the army if you're on the side that's going to be wiped out, which is exactly what will happen if there's conflict. Eventually that is - as they surely could unleash hell on (at least) South Korea in very short order.

It is a very effective strategy. That is exactly why there have been no American strikes on North Korea. Like it or not, it is exactly the same as the cold war strategy used by the great powers.

I know what you say and why, but it doesn't relate to Fred's post.

I don't agree though. I don't believe that the US is busting to attack NK.

I can't see any comparison to the Cold War. USSR and USA were both superpowers. Both were first world countries. Both had leaders that were not stupid. They believed the other could attack, again, unlike this current situation..

Now, if Trump wasn't POTUS, what would this issue be? It would be the same as it has played out before, over and over, except it would not be as topical. So far, he has done nothing out of the ordinary, either with Syria or NK. But you read hysteria news articles. Not to say he won't do anything dumb. but I would be surprised if he did.

gzt

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#1770972 26-Apr-2017 22:57

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joker97: Western civilisation are afraid of being killed because there is no afterlife.

Who says KJU or his people are afraid of death? Death could quite possibly be only the beginning of their eternal life.

Why do you think ISIS and all that have gone before them are so able? The westerners just don't get it.

You have your wires crossed. The motivation of North Koreans is essentially patriotic. Misguided or not. Same reason Americans were convinced to go to Iraq and died there.

gzt

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#1770973 26-Apr-2017 23:25

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tdgeek:
gzt:
Fred99:
joker97: Surely KJU is 120% bad on the badness scale.

Or perhaps you mean he is not a bad person, just categorically insane.

I suspect it's all show/bravado, intent on keeping his subjects and millions of soldiers etc loyal - to believe they can win. Not much fun being in the army if you're on the side that's going to be wiped out, which is exactly what will happen if there's conflict. Eventually that is - as they surely could unleash hell on (at least) South Korea in very short order.

It is a very effective strategy. That is exactly why there have been no American strikes on North Korea. Like it or not, it is exactly the same as the cold war strategy used by the great powers.

I know what you say and why, but it doesn't relate to Fred's post.

I don't agree though. I don't believe that the US is busting to attack NK.

I can't see any comparison to the Cold War. USSR and USA were both superpowers. Both were first world countries. Both had leaders that were not stupid. They believed the other could attack, again, unlike this current situation..

Now, if Trump wasn't POTUS, what would this issue be? It would be the same as it has played out before, over and over, except it would not be as topical. So far, he has done nothing out of the ordinary, either with Syria or NK. But you read hysteria news articles. Not to say he won't do anything dumb. but I would be surprised if he did.

It is not show and bravado. North Korea means it. The US certainly want to attack to eliminate the NK nuclear weapons program. There is no doubt about that at all.

gzt

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#1770976 26-Apr-2017 23:37

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I more or less agree it would be very likely a similar situation with or without Trump. I can easily understand and agree with people who fear Trump in this situation. He and members of his administration have demonstrated spectacular incompetance in the last 100 days.

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#1771145 27-Apr-2017 11:04

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gzt:

There were many opportunities for USA to halt or vastly slow the pace of nuclear weapons development in North Korea. Instead USA prioritised the slow destruction of the DPRK. That strategy appears to have led to vastly increased misery and hunger in NK and has not slowed weapons development. The strategy is essentially a failure.

You are advocating a continuation of this failed strategy, which can only cause more hardship for ordinary North Koreans. What is the point of that?

You are assuming that your opinion is accurate. Should the US and remember this is a West issue, have waltzed in andgold them to shut down the nuclear plants? Or say if you stop we will give you food and oil?, NK is a vicious and ruthless dictatorship who use fear on their people and threats to the world. Talking has gone on before accompanied by reneging. You can only go so far with game players. China is the only one who can talk.

You are saying that this is the fault of the US and more of less implying it was a solvable problem and that the US has made him what he is, and his Dad and his Dad.

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#1771180 27-Apr-2017 11:47

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#1771199 27-Apr-2017 12:16

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and ...

Ivanka & Jarad: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO)

... a must-watch, but profoundly disturbing

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Fred99

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#1771445 27-Apr-2017 17:32

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tdgeek:

gzt:

There were many opportunities for USA to halt or vastly slow the pace of nuclear weapons development in North Korea. Instead USA prioritised the slow destruction of the DPRK. That strategy appears to have led to vastly increased misery and hunger in NK and has not slowed weapons development. The strategy is essentially a failure.

You are advocating a continuation of this failed strategy, which can only cause more hardship for ordinary North Koreans. What is the point of that?

You are assuming that your opinion is accurate. Should the US and remember this is a West issue, have waltzed in andgold them to shut down the nuclear plants? Or say if you stop we will give you food and oil?, NK is a vicious and ruthless dictatorship who use fear on their people and threats to the world. Talking has gone on before accompanied by reneging. You can only go so far with game players. China is the only one who can talk.

You are saying that this is the fault of the US and more of less implying it was a solvable problem and that the US has made him what he is, and his Dad and his Dad.

DPRK was a signatory to the nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty.

They pulled out in 2003, blaming "US aggression".

This was at the time George W Bush invaded Iraq, which was IMO "US aggression".

I think they probably do expect an attack from the USA.

As for DPRK being a ruthless dictatorship - that shouldn't be a problem for the USA, they've supported and interfered in other countries to put ruthless dictatorships in place. If you're suggesting that the part of the reason the US may act is to relieve the population of DPRK from tyranny - you're dreaming.

gzt

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#1771573 27-Apr-2017 21:35

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tdgeek:
gzt:

There were many opportunities for USA to halt or vastly slow the pace of nuclear weapons development in North Korea. Instead USA prioritised the slow destruction of the DPRK. That strategy appears to have led to vastly increased misery and hunger in NK and has not slowed weapons development. The strategy is essentially a failure.

You are advocating a continuation of this failed strategy, which can only cause more hardship for ordinary North Koreans. What is the point of that?

You are assuming that your opinion is accurate. Should the US and remember this is a West issue, have waltzed in andgold them to shut down the nuclear plants? Or say if you stop we will give you food and oil?, NK is a vicious and ruthless dictatorship who use fear on their people and threats to the world. Talking has gone on before accompanied by reneging. You can only go so far with game players. China is the only one who can talk.

You are saying that this is the fault of the US and more of less implying it was a solvable problem and that the US has made him what he is, and his Dad and his Dad.

USA missed an opportunity to meet an agreement to slow the pace of nuclear development in DPRK. Yeah would have been rough going, but it would have been a much better situation today for everyone. At this point it is very unlikely that North Korea will agree to give up any of the gains. The best immediate outcome will be a monitored freeze.

Unfortunately USA at present will not talk without the precondition of NK giving up already. That is very unlikely.

There is zero that NZ can do to influence North Korea. On the other hand, we can influence our allies to begin a course of action that will eventually lead to something better. There is plenty of groundwork already done and frameworks in place, South Korea is keen to get back to the table and NZ should support that.

tdgeek

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#1771586 27-Apr-2017 21:50

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Fred99:
tdgeek:

gzt:

There were many opportunities for USA to halt or vastly slow the pace of nuclear weapons development in North Korea. Instead USA prioritised the slow destruction of the DPRK. That strategy appears to have led to vastly increased misery and hunger in NK and has not slowed weapons development. The strategy is essentially a failure.

You are advocating a continuation of this failed strategy, which can only cause more hardship for ordinary North Koreans. What is the point of that?

You are assuming that your opinion is accurate. Should the US and remember this is a West issue, have waltzed in andgold them to shut down the nuclear plants? Or say if you stop we will give you food and oil?, NK is a vicious and ruthless dictatorship who use fear on their people and threats to the world. Talking has gone on before accompanied by reneging. You can only go so far with game players. China is the only one who can talk.

You are saying that this is the fault of the US and more of less implying it was a solvable problem and that the US has made him what he is, and his Dad and his Dad.

DPRK was a signatory to the nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty.

They pulled out in 2003, blaming "US aggression".

This was at the time George W Bush invaded Iraq, which was IMO "US aggression".

I think they probably do expect an attack from the USA.

As for DPRK being a ruthless dictatorship - that shouldn't be a problem for the USA, they've supported and interfered in other countries to put ruthless dictatorships in place. If you're suggesting that the part of the reason the US may act is to relieve the population of DPRK from tyranny - you're dreaming.

No, I'm not dreaming. The USA won't act.

Russia supports ruthless dictators too, they support Syria. The West supports NK, as does the US by letting them play games with us.

As to believing that NK signed the non proliferation with genuine intent, that's a hard one to believe, very hard.

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#1771590 27-Apr-2017 21:59

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Do any of you listen to "the huddle" on newstalk ZB's drive show. Its around about 5:30pm. anyway Matthew Hooton described Trump perfectly. Saying he has been and abyssal president. He has 180'd on a large chunk of his campaign promises. Deep down, I think he wants to do a good job. But based on this he is destined to be a single term president. The GOP should replace him. The democrats are a disaster of a mess, a bit like the Australian and NZ labor parties. When they learn they are too far to the left they will get in again.

Elections are won by those that appear to the centre.

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#1771593 27-Apr-2017 22:02

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gzt:
tdgeek:
gzt:

There were many opportunities for USA to halt or vastly slow the pace of nuclear weapons development in North Korea. Instead USA prioritised the slow destruction of the DPRK. That strategy appears to have led to vastly increased misery and hunger in NK and has not slowed weapons development. The strategy is essentially a failure.

You are advocating a continuation of this failed strategy, which can only cause more hardship for ordinary North Koreans. What is the point of that?

You are assuming that your opinion is accurate. Should the US and remember this is a West issue, have waltzed in andgold them to shut down the nuclear plants? Or say if you stop we will give you food and oil?, NK is a vicious and ruthless dictatorship who use fear on their people and threats to the world. Talking has gone on before accompanied by reneging. You can only go so far with game players. China is the only one who can talk.

You are saying that this is the fault of the US and more of less implying it was a solvable problem and that the US has made him what he is, and his Dad and his Dad.

USA missed an opportunity to meet an agreement to slow the pace of nuclear development in DPRK. Yeah would have been rough going, but it would have been a much better situation today for everyone. At this point it is very unlikely that North Korea will agree to give up any of the gains. The best immediate outcome will be a monitored freeze.

Unfortunately USA at present will not talk without the precondition of NK giving up already. That is very unlikely.

There is zero that NZ can do to influence North Korea. On the other hand, we can influence our allies to begin a course of action that will eventually lead to something better. There is plenty of groundwork already done and frameworks in place, South Korea is keen to get back to the table and NZ should support that.

I hear you but again, that's if you believe that NK's leaders are real and genuine and not tyrants. I believe they are tyrants, and play us off continually.

I do not feel that there is any desire for NK to reach peace. Tension, sanctions, agreement, reduce sanctions, get aid, break agreement etc works for him. He needs to sort his relationship with China, be nice for 5 minutes, get relief, and start over.

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