NZ Election 2020

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34 posts

Geek
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#2531255 30-Jul-2020 10:11

@Handle9 Instead of effectively calling me a liar you could do a simple Google search. Search Gift Tax for starters, there is a whole official IRD PDF on the subject. Taxes come up on bank acounts as official payments to IRD, so either Westpac is lying when it states the payment as going to IRD on the transaction list or it goes to IRD. Though whatever floats your boat, if you want to pretend they don't exist, send more than 2k a year while living overseas.

Link to said PDF: https://www.ird.govt.nz/-/media/project/ir/documents/forms-and-guides/ir100---ir199/ir195/ir195-2012.pdf

tdgeek

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#2531264 30-Jul-2020 10:33

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/national-housing-spokesperson-jacqui-dean-falsely-claims-they-built-30-000-state-homes-when-last-in-power.html

Ouch

Hard to know what to believe when so many lies, and "it was a joke"

Wander4821

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Geek
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#2531265 30-Jul-2020 10:37

antonknee:
Would like to know more about these phantom taxes please @Wander4821.

Re CB poll tonight I'm also expecting a slightly better result for National, but not by much. I think at least 30% of this country wold vote blue no matter who - there are a number of electorates where you could stick a blue ribbon on a sack of potatoes and it would be elected. So rightly or wrongly I think their baseline of support is around that 30% number.

The Greens have not been polling all that well given their performance in government. Suspect a lot of it is sitting with Labour given support for Jacinda Ardern. I anticipate (hope) a number of left voters may well switch thier vote Green, as it supports a Labour-led government, and as @GV27 said neutralises the Winston threat.

Act will continue to poll well (for them) and I thnk NZF will continue to poll poorly, as will the other parties.

Well, when you leave, there are double taxation agreements usually. These don't take into account substantial transactions made while living in one country and sent to NZ. While I was living in NZ, I'd help my parents by doing their banking, and they'd give me some of it. They got stung by the gift tax. If you remove funds from savings and move it to checking, then it becomes some kind of income, probably because of the interest that money accumulates in savings. What sort of phantom tax are you more interested in learning about?

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#2531275 30-Jul-2020 11:00

Wander4821: ... While I was living in NZ, I'd help my parents by doing their banking, and they'd give me some of it. They got stung by the gift tax. If you remove funds from savings and move it to checking, then it becomes some kind of income, probably because of the interest that money accumulates in savings. What sort of phantom tax are you more interested in learning about?

Are you sure you didn't get stung by some scammer? Did you pay these taxes using iTunes vouchers by chance?

Sometimes I use big words I don't always fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.

MurrayM

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#2531322 30-Jul-2020 12:21

Wander4821: @Handle9 Instead of effectively calling me a liar you could do a simple Google search. Search Gift Tax for starters, there is a whole official IRD PDF on the subject. Taxes come up on bank acounts as official payments to IRD, so either Westpac is lying when it states the payment as going to IRD on the transaction list or it goes to IRD. Though whatever floats your boat, if you want to pretend they don't exist, send more than 2k a year while living overseas.

Link to said PDF: https://www.ird.govt.nz/-/media/project/ir/documents/forms-and-guides/ir100---ir199/ir195/ir195-2012.pdf

That PDF says:

Gift duty is imposed by section 61 of the Estate and Gift Duties Act 1968. Subject to certain exemptions, gift duty is payable to the Crown on dutiable gifts with a total value of more than $27,000 in any 12-month period, made before 1 October 2011.

And the IRD Gift Duty web page that links to that PDF says:

If you made a gift on or after 1 October 2011 you will not pay a gift duty.

So from the above quotes it looks like gift duty was phased out in 2011 and is no longer applicable. Or have I misinterpretted it?

GV27

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#2531325 30-Jul-2020 12:28

MurrayM:

So from the above quotes it looks like gift duty was phased out in 2011 and is no longer applicable. Or have I misinterpretted it?

My understanding is that gift duty still 'exists' but the rate is now zero and disclosures to the IRD are no longer necessary.

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MurrayM

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#2531341 30-Jul-2020 13:07

GV27:

MurrayM:

So from the above quotes it looks like gift duty was phased out in 2011 and is no longer applicable. Or have I misinterpretted it?

My understanding is that gift duty still 'exists' but the rate is now zero and disclosures to the IRD are no longer necessary.

Yes, that's how I read it too.

Handle9

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#2531392 30-Jul-2020 14:05

Wander4821: @Handle9 Instead of effectively calling me a liar you could do a simple Google search. Search Gift Tax for starters, there is a whole official IRD PDF on the subject. Taxes come up on bank acounts as official payments to IRD, so either Westpac is lying when it states the payment as going to IRD on the transaction list or it goes to IRD. Though whatever floats your boat, if you want to pretend they don't exist, send more than 2k a year while living overseas.

Link to said PDF: https://www.ird.govt.nz/-/media/project/ir/documents/forms-and-guides/ir100---ir199/ir195/ir195-2012.pdf

I do live overseas and very regularly send more than $2000 to NZ. There is no tax on money entering the country.

I very regularly move money between accounts. There is no tax. I am a trustee of family trust, which involved gifting very large assets to the trust. After 2011 there was no gift duty.

In NZ you get taxed on income and you get taxed on consumption. That's about it. There are no capital gains taxes, there are no wealth taxes. Local authorities charge rates but that's not collected by IRD.

Please share the actual details of your claimed phantom taxes as it appears that you don't know what you are taking about here.

Wander4821

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Geek
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#2531418 30-Jul-2020 14:49

Handle9:
Wander4821: @Handle9 Instead of effectively calling me a liar you could do a simple Google search. Search Gift Tax for starters, there is a whole official IRD PDF on the subject. Taxes come up on bank acounts as official payments to IRD, so either Westpac is lying when it states the payment as going to IRD on the transaction list or it goes to IRD. Though whatever floats your boat, if you want to pretend they don't exist, send more than 2k a year while living overseas.

Link to said PDF: https://www.ird.govt.nz/-/media/project/ir/documents/forms-and-guides/ir100---ir199/ir195/ir195-2012.pdf

I do live overseas and very regularly send more than $2000 to NZ. There is no tax on money entering the country.

I very regularly move money between accounts. There is no tax. I am a trustee of family trust, which involved gifting very large assets to the trust. After 2011 there was no gift duty.

In NZ you get taxed on income and you get taxed on consumption. That's about it. There are no capital gains taxes, there are no wealth taxes. Local authorities charge rates but that's not collected by IRD.

Please share the actual details of your claimed phantom taxes as it appears that you don't know what you are taking about here.

You don't want to know, as you've made such a fuss about what I have said. My folks left in 2009, meaning at least three years of the gift tax, even assuming what you are claiming. Trusts are often excluded so don't count, and if you were about giving me a fair hearing then you'd be fully aware trusts are routinely mocked as a means to escape tax.

Though as I said, whatever floats your boat. If you want to believe I am lying that's up to you. Not going to bother sharing bank account info with strangers, not to mention you've already made clear to me that apparently IRD transactions are fake, and that Westpac, et al are apparently telling a lie when they state such.

So what is basically is being asked of me is an official letter from the PM's office, and a personal visit from Ardern herself and the last four PMs, as nothing else could "share the details" adequately enough.

Handle9

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#2531450 30-Jul-2020 15:29

Thanks for your concern around the status of the trust, for which I am trustee. I am well aware of the status of trusts, prior to being appointed a trustee I took some time to understand what that meant.

Trusts were never exempt from gift duty. This meant that more complex arrangements were necessary to transfer property to a trust. Prior to 2011 I had to annually sign a gift statement for $27,000, which was the value which was exempt from gift duty. Since then it was no longer necessary.

My "claim" that gift duty doesn't exist anymore is described in the first line of the document you linked to. I've copied it to save you the time: Gift duty is imposed by section 61 of the Estate and Gift Duties Act 1968. Subject to certain exemptions, gift duty is payable to the Crown on dutiable gifts with a total value of more than $27,000 in any 12-month period, made before 1 October 2011.

I don't think you are lying, based on what you have written I think that you don't understand New Zealand tax law and don't understand your bank statements.

The most likely payments to IRD from Westpac would be for income tax on interest earned. That is income earned in NZ and is directly taxable. It's not a phantom tax, it's not a transaction tax, it's not a transfer tax it's income tax. Tax residency in another country doesn't make your income in NZ tax free, it means your overseas income isn't taxed in NZ.

GV27

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#2531458 30-Jul-2020 15:45

Wander4821: You don't want to know, as you've made such a fuss about what I have said. My folks left in 2009, meaning at least three years of the gift tax, even assuming what you are claiming. Trusts are often excluded so don't count, and if you were about giving me a fair hearing then you'd be fully aware trusts are routinely mocked as a means to escape tax.

Trusts haven't been that effective to 'escape tax' since the tax rates were aligned many years ago; when the top tax rate was at 39c then a trust that paid 33c was an attractive proposition. Less so now.

The abolition of gift duty definitely applied to trusts. There were many a think-piece around the consequences of full-gifting for family trusts. It was a thing with regards to subsidies for rest homes. It probably still is.

The reason people are challenging you on this is because what you are asserting to be true doesn't match up to the collective experience of this thread. Some of it is well informed and some would probably be quite keen to understand the actual issue you're talking about (possibly an ordering rule thing but to be honest I am drawing a blank).

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Wander4821

34 posts

Geek
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#2531512 30-Jul-2020 17:25

GV27:
Wander4821: You don't want to know, as you've made such a fuss about what I have said. My folks left in 2009, meaning at least three years of the gift tax, even assuming what you are claiming. Trusts are often excluded so don't count, and if you were about giving me a fair hearing then you'd be fully aware trusts are routinely mocked as a means to escape tax.

Trusts haven't been that effective to 'escape tax' since the tax rates were aligned many years ago; when the top tax rate was at 39c then a trust that paid 33c was an attractive proposition. Less so now.

The abolition of gift duty definitely applied to trusts. There were many a think-piece around the consequences of full-gifting for family trusts. It was a thing with regards to subsidies for rest homes. It probably still is.

The reason people are challenging you on this is because what you are asserting to be true doesn't match up to the collective experience of this thread. Some of it is well informed and some would probably be quite keen to understand the actual issue you're talking about (possibly an ordering rule thing but to be honest I am drawing a blank).

Well, you literally claimed I was lying about the gift tax existing. Said gift tax stuff happened when I lived in NZ before gift tax was 'abolished'. Nice shifting the goal posts. Though as I said, the disingenuous part of what you are pushing against what I may have posted is that what you demand as "proof" is not provable. Effectively it is a bait to self doxx so you can share and push your narrative.

If someone sees the IRD deduct money after doing a specific online banking action, it is clear enough what has happened. If said person were to share statement with strangers, they'd claim it is shopped, then next the person would be duped share the PDF in a fit, and self doxx. So hell no on doing what you want.

I'll prefer to sit back and let you say whatever, as if you don't wanr to hear what I have to say it is rather pointless me repeating the same points with counter examples till I drop dead from boredom.

Handle9

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#2531516 30-Jul-2020 17:46

GV27:
Handle9:

Pretty much everything you wrote above is nonsense. Tax residency is a complex issue but there aren't phantom taxes as you describe them.

Thank you for putting that more diplomatically than I was going to be able to. I don't really want another holiday from GZ 😅

Colmar Brunton poll results tonight. Interesting to hear they were polling up to last night so the Newshub poll could arguably be a self-fulfilling prophecy - at least that's what I think we'll see claimed if things don't work out better for JuCo.

Expecting a better-ish result from the Nats and a strong swing to the Greens as the left starts to think tactically to keep NZ First out.

I'd guess 50ish for Labour, 30 something for National, 5-6 for the Greens and 3 each for Act and NZ First

Handle9

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#2531518 30-Jul-2020 17:49

Wander4821:
GV27:

Trusts haven't been that effective to 'escape tax' since the tax rates were aligned many years ago; when the top tax rate was at 39c then a trust that paid 33c was an attractive proposition. Less so now.

The abolition of gift duty definitely applied to trusts. There were many a think-piece around the consequences of full-gifting for family trusts. It was a thing with regards to subsidies for rest homes. It probably still is.

The reason people are challenging you on this is because what you are asserting to be true doesn't match up to the collective experience of this thread. Some of it is well informed and some would probably be quite keen to understand the actual issue you're talking about (possibly an ordering rule thing but to be honest I am drawing a blank).
Well, you literally claimed I was lying about the gift tax existing. Said gift tax stuff happened when I lived in NZ before gift tax was 'abolished'. Nice shifting the goal posts. Though as I said, the disingenuous part of what you are pushing against what I may have posted is that what you demand as "proof" is not provable. Effectively it is a bait to self doxx so you can share and push your narrative.

If someone sees the IRD deduct money after doing a specific online banking action, it is clear enough what has happened. If said person were to share statement with strangers, they'd claim it is shopped, then next the person would be duped share the PDF in a fit, and self doxx. So hell no on doing what you want.

I'll prefer to sit back and let you say whatever, as if you don't wanr to hear what I have to say it is rather pointless me repeating the same points with counter examples till I drop dead from boredom.

I suggest you need to check what was actually written and by whom before flaming. As for the rest, whatever, it's fairly incoherent.

Wander4821

34 posts

Geek
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#2531530 30-Jul-2020 18:09

Now you accuse me of flaming for essentially responding to folks calling me effectively a liar, for what I've seen in my own bank account. Though the goal was pretty much to get me to respond, so you'd get an ego trip getting me banned or whatever. Alternatively, push off the forum folks that don't agree with you politically or whatever. Don't need to bother, I'll go and leave you to it. Signing off. Do your victory dance or whatever this is.

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