Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)

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Networkn
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#2919457 27-May-2022 14:57

Technofreak:

I don't think we can even start to compare the two countries. I had a very interesting discussion with a friend who lives in Virginia after the I think it was the Virginia Tech shooting. From memory he told me it was legal to carry a concealed weapon in that state, a very foreign concept to our way of thinking. However it had the effect of moderating the average persons behaviour in a positive way. He gave an example, someone at a restaurant would not give the waitress a hard time because they didn't know who in the room might be carrying a concealed weapon that they may choose to use to come to the aid of the waitress. In other words because people never knew who had a gun therefore they didn't misbehave.

I can see the argument, but there are counter arguments to be made here:

Should anyone 'come to the rescue' of a waitress, with a gun? I mean if the person hassling the waitress does so with a gun, then .....

If lots of people walk around with guns readily available, then do you sometimes end up in a who draws first type in a conflict, scenario?

I've never lived anywhere with high levels of gun ownership and have no desire to do so, but it's kinda scary the possibilities that come up potentially.

Having said that, we were in Paris a few years back when people were randomly walking up and killing police officers (and a few members of the public were killed too) . I have never known public tension like we experienced, it was truly awful. We were at the Louvre the day after we arrived, and all the police were carrying big assault-type rifles. Usually, that would make me extremely uncomfortable, but honestly, for some reason, it felt reassuring.

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#2919467 27-May-2022 15:34

Technofreak:

Per head of population is the US any worse than us? I don't know that answer to that so it's not a simple answer to your question as to which set of numbers I'd prefer. Sure the gun lobby in the US is very strong but so is the sentiment of the right to bear arms.

...

As I said their gun laws are very different what we have, but they do/can work. In fact it can be argued that their gun laws have failed when they have tried to be more like us. Both countries have a different psych when it comes to guns. I'm not sure it's easy to parachute in laws from another country with a high chance of success.

No, their gun situation is far worse than ours - I actually agree in large with networkn's post here:

networkn:

Comparing NZ and the US is a complete waste of time. We do not have the same culture as them, or views on guns. Or political history. You can argue theirs is wrong and ours is right and in most regards I'd agree, however you don't don't unwind peoples views of gun ownership given their history, in a short period of time.

The views are changing there, very slowly, but it's going to take a long time. There is a prevailing view that until the current generation die out, it won't happen enough for wholesale changes.

It seems pretty obvious something drastically needs to change, I can just see why there is such a huge amount of resistance to it, even though I disagree with it.

My personal take on their gun laws (which I'm sure you'll disagree with): I have a gun, you have a gun. But as long as mine is bigger, and I shoot you first, we're all good, right? All this strikes me as a rather appalling way to live your life. Also I wouldn't call the events this week a situation where anything has "worked" - would you?

One of the NRA lines often trotted out after yet another mass shooting is: "the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun".

But who decides who the "good guy" is? You? Me? Politicians? The NRA?

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#2919473 27-May-2022 15:51

Two things:

First a thought experiment: If most police officer walked in, and there are two people of the same race and gender pointing guns at each other, do you think the police's first inclination is to ask "who's the bad guy?"

I mention race and gender because I think we all suspect how the police may react if a black man and a white woman were both holding guns pointed at each other.

Second, Jacinda Arden is frequently being asked about her thoughts on gun control because there was yet another mass murder of school children.

Almost all interviews go like this:

"We all know about the Christchurch mosque massacre. In New Zealand, ... guns control ...

Why do you think you were able to ... / What do you think America needs to do ..."

She never brings up gun control in the US. She is always led into the conversation.

I'm sure if she was being candid, she would just say "I'm here to bring back tourists, and sell New Zealand meat and dairy."

She knows she's being pulled into the US gun debate, and the reality she has almost no affect on US policy.

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#2919484 27-May-2022 16:16

quickymart:

My personal take on their gun laws (which I'm sure you'll disagree with): I have a gun, you have a gun. But as long as mine is bigger, and I shoot you first, we're all good, right? All this strikes me as a rather appalling way to live your life. Also I wouldn't call the events this week a situation where anything has "worked" - would you?

One of the NRA lines often trotted out after yet another mass shooting is: "the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun".

But who decides who the "good guy" is? You? Me? Politicians? The NRA?

I think it's worth nothing that someone who walks into a school and kills 20 kids or a mosque and kills 50 innocents, isn't expecting to survive the event (even if they do). They aren't going to hesitate to get their weapons illegally, and someone determined enough is going to find a way to commit their extremely evil acts regardless. Gun laws may prevent a lot of lesser crimes, perhaps crimes committed in haste with not much planning, or someone who doesn't have resources to find other ways. It won't stop the determined resourced people who plan it.

I 100% support gun laws, deplore gun violence and don't ever expect to own a gun, but I am also 100% realistic that no matter what you do, people will commit heinous crimes against each other no matter what laws or protections are in place. I 100% believe there is absolutely no good reason for a person to have an assault weapon or a gun that fires rapidly unless they are in law enforcement or the military.

Point in case, we were in London 3 days after the terrorists went into the markets and stabbed a huge number of people. Are they going to make knife control laws? Nope, of course not.

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#2919532 27-May-2022 16:51

In fact UK recently added more knife laws and regs. I believe there were previous changes too although I have not checked:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-measures-to-restrict-access-to-corrosives-and-knives

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#2919533 27-May-2022 16:55

Anyways kind of getting offtopic. Australia might be a better comparison with many more similarities.

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#2919536 27-May-2022 17:09

Speaking of Australia, John Oliver actually did a really good segment comparing Australia and US gun laws back in 2013. Depressing to see nothing's changed since then:

Technofreak

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#2919561 27-May-2022 21:02

networkn:

Technofreak:

I don't think we can even start to compare the two countries. I had a very interesting discussion with a friend who lives in Virginia after the I think it was the Virginia Tech shooting. From memory he told me it was legal to carry a concealed weapon in that state, a very foreign concept to our way of thinking. However it had the effect of moderating the average persons behaviour in a positive way. He gave an example, someone at a restaurant would not give the waitress a hard time because they didn't know who in the room might be carrying a concealed weapon that they may choose to use to come to the aid of the waitress. In other words because people never knew who had a gun therefore they didn't misbehave.

I can see the argument, but there are counter arguments to be made here:

Should anyone 'come to the rescue' of a waitress, with a gun? I mean if the person hassling the waitress does so with a gun, then .....

If lots of people walk around with guns readily available, then do you sometimes end up in a who draws first type in a conflict, scenario?

I've never lived anywhere with high levels of gun ownership and have no desire to do so, but it's kinda scary the possibilities that come up potentially.

Having said that, we were in Paris a few years back when people were randomly walking up and killing police officers (and a few members of the public were killed too) . I have never known public tension like we experienced, it was truly awful. We were at the Louvre the day after we arrived, and all the police were carrying big assault-type rifles. Usually, that would make me extremely uncomfortable, but honestly, for some reason, it felt reassuring.

No argument, of course there's very good counter arguments. All I was trying to do was illustrate the difference between the way we view guns and gun laws and the way they're seen in the US. This friend of mine was not a gun toting, it's my right to bear arms type of guy, yet he still made the argument for the fact that the gun free zone at Virginia Tech was a major contributing factor in the massacre happening. Like you I'm not so convinced but that's not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to show the gulf between the way both cultures see guns. Before we can judge or pass comment we need to "walk a mile in their shoes".

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GV27

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#2925962 13-Jun-2022 11:26

Cabinet reshuffle supposedly today. Speculation from pundits is that Williams is goneburger and Mahuta's Local Government portfolio may get given to someone else.

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#2925968 13-Jun-2022 11:44

GV27:

Cabinet reshuffle supposedly today. Speculation from pundits is that Williams is goneburger and Mahuta's Local Government portfolio may get given to someone else.

But who too?

There's a severe lack of talent as is already evident from the way so many important portfolios are handled by so few people. As it is now the likes of Kris Faafoi seem to be overwhelmed and need to off load some of their work load. So it's not just a matter of finding a replacement for Poto Williams and someone to take on the Local Government role.

I'm not sure Nanaia Mahuta is the right person to be fronting out Foreign Affairs portfolio. I'd have though Local Government might have been a better role for her but she's taken a tone deaf approach to some of the important stuff going on there that she is becoming a liability in that role.

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networkn

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#2925970 13-Jun-2022 11:45

GV27:

Cabinet reshuffle supposedly today. Speculation from pundits is that Williams is goneburger and Mahuta's Local Government portfolio may get given to someone else.

Mahuta should keep that one and lose her Foreign Minister one. She seems quite out of her depth and her handling of recent Pacific relations looks very passive and reactive.

Little should have his healthcare portfolio stripped as well, he is making a royal meal of it, especially in light of his recent comments in response to distressed calls from top medical bosses about the state of things right now. It's really typical of this Government to deny deny deny when someone suggests they aren't handling things as well as they could. He is very poorly regarded from top medical bosses do nothing (Which has earned him a rather unfortunate nickname) attitude. He just keeps pointing the fingers back at everyone else saying it's their fault the medical system is under immense pressure. He has been invited on multiple occasions to spend a night or so in any of the top 5 emergency rooms to see the problems for himself.

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#2926011 13-Jun-2022 13:06

networkn:

Little should have his healthcare portfolio stripped as well, he is making a royal meal of it, especially in light of his recent comments in response to distressed calls from top medical bosses about the state of things right now. It's really typical of this Government to deny deny deny when someone suggests they aren't handling things as well as they could. He is very poorly regarded from top medical bosses do nothing (Which has earned him a rather unfortunate nickname) attitude. He just keeps pointing the fingers back at everyone else saying it's their fault the medical system is under immense pressure. He has been invited on multiple occasions to spend a night or so in any of the top 5 emergency rooms to see the problems for himself.

My impression is that it is typical of every government to never admit that they are doing anything wrong, or less well than they ought to. Apart from that, I agree with your comments about Little. I have been wondering what value he adds for some time, and the Health Ministry doesn't exactly have a sterling record.

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#2926012 13-Jun-2022 13:09

Changing the health system in such a major way is like turning round an aircraft carrier. Good on them for having the stones to do it - cos it was/is broke and needs fixing.

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#2926020 13-Jun-2022 13:36

elpenguino:

Changing the health system in such a major way is like turning round an aircraft carrier. Good on them for having the stones to do it - cos it was/is broke and needs fixing.

On the evidence to date of this Government delivering on big projects, you seem wildly over optimistic.

Saying you'll do something, isn't the same as doing it.

I've yet to see much positive feedback about the proposed 'fix'. The cost is going to be way way way more than they have projected, and the majority of the commentary I've seen about the likely outcome, is shuffling deck chairs on the titanic. It won't address the chronic understaffing, it won't address the big number of medical professionals who left in the past 12 months because immigration NZ wouldn't hurry through their applications, it seems unlikely to really address the amount of red tape (despite that being the supposed outcome).

I expect 3 Waters to be a similar disaster.

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#2926025 13-Jun-2022 13:45

Technofreak:

But who too?

There's a severe lack of talent as is already evident from the way so many important portfolios are handled by so few people. As it is now the likes of Kris Faafoi seem to be overwhelmed and need to off load some of their work load. So it's not just a matter of finding a replacement for Poto Williams and someone to take on the Local Government role.

I'm not sure Nanaia Mahuta is the right person to be fronting out Foreign Affairs portfolio. I'd have though Local Government might have been a better role for her but she's taken a tone deaf approach to some of the important stuff going on there that she is becoming a liability in that role.

Have heard Faafoi maybe out of Cabinet as he's retiring at the next election?

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