Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)

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#2926268 13-Jun-2022 22:37

GV27: My issue is the idea that one particular flavour of change i.e. centralisation seems to always be the answer while measurable metrics like ED waiting times or cancer treatment target windows get treated as inconveniences.

I believe one current problem is varying levels of treatment and length of waiting list in different regions, as well as the usual horrendous inequality for Maori and pacific peoples. Both of those things are worth addressing. Imo health insurance should go on the list of parliamentarian's pecuniary interests.

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#2926269 13-Jun-2022 23:02

Technofreak:

quickymart:

Sweet, so what would be your solution then, if any?

Actually put in place a gun/owner licensing system along the lines of what the police wanted before the current system was put in place.

Elpenguino

You missed my point.

Sure there are less guns in circulation but they came from people who weren't likely to cause a problemwith them.

I would disagree with you there and the facts agree with me. The massacres at Aramoana and Christchurch mosque were both done by licensed firearm owners.

Having fewer licensed MSSAs also means fewer to steal by crims - but crims don't use them for massacres anyway.

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#2926288 14-Jun-2022 06:27

gzt:

I believe one current problem is varying levels of treatment and length of waiting list in different regions, as well as the usual horrendous inequality for Maori and pacific peoples. Both of those things are worth addressing. Imo health insurance should go on the list of parliamentarian's pecuniary interests.

The problem is that you can solve both these problems by making everyone wait longer and making sure everyone gets worse service. Still won't have improved anyone's lives at the end of it though. And it's a whole-of-government approach issue too - look at how hard it has been to get medical professionals into the country as migrants in the last couple of years. You've had qualified doctors and nurses just giving up and moving their families somewhere else.

I don't think health insurance has anything to do with it, just a more direct line of accountability when people are paying for something specific and have a direct point of contact when they don't get it.

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#2926290 14-Jun-2022 06:37

elpenguino:

the modern scourge of massacres at the end of gun.

This type of response is warranted in the US but not here.

How often have we had 'gun massacres' over a 40 year period? Chch, Aramoana? Would the buyback laws have stopped Rarimu, the Bain family murders, etc? Hyping the dangers of firearms as it applied in NZ retrospectively to make the gun reforms look good is pretty average tbh when for a vast period of that time, we had little to no incidents.

Frankly you had a higher chance of getting wasted by the cops than you did by a civilian packing military firepower.

I'll also note that post-gun buy-back, my neighborhood is seeing shootings at least once a month. I don't think these are frustrated recreational pistol users who are upset their hobby got banned.

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#2926313 14-Jun-2022 09:30

elpenguino:

The gun buy back won't stop drive by shootings, they can be done with a shotgun. The gun buy back wont stop a lunatic killing someone with a gun. The gun buy back will stop that lunatic getting a body count in the dozens. That makes the gun buy back a success.

The gun buy back improves the lives of everyone by freeing us from the modern scourge of massacres at the end of gun. That's a very direct benefit. Not every benefit can be measured - what price can you put on feeling safe?

No, it will stop a lunatic killing dozens with a LEGAL gun. But as I pointed out, if you are deranged enough to kill 50 innocent people in the first place, you won't be too bothered by having to go to get your weapons illegally (and the point of my comments is to point out that the illegal weapons will not have been largely captured by this buy back). Nor will it stop said deranged from finding other ways to kill groups of people en mass.

The reality is that these types of crimes in NZ are extremely rare, as tragic as they are, and whilst I support the idea that only police and or military should have automatic weapons, a billion dollars toward education and health would have had a far greater direct reach, and for a far larger time. In theory, I don't have a issue with the removing of automatic weapons, and or tightening of rules around gun ownership, but the sheer amount of money (another $200M announced overnight), the net effect and the feeling it was a knee-jerk reaction done at a pace that made the whole thing feel quite disorganised and rushed, leaves me feeling that we haven't really achieved what was intended.

Will there be some benefits to this buy back scheme, sure, totally, will it amount to what is likely to end up $1.5B worth? I don't believe so.

If you feel significantly safer now than you did say 3 years ago (before the shootings), that's great. I certainly don't feel much safer. I don't believe for a second we have prevented a similar crime from happening as a result of what we have done to date.

I would feel this exact same way if National had enacted this.

This is the last I'll be saying in this thread about it, because despite it being somewhat relevant, the debate could go on forever. I considered a new thread, but I suspect it would ultimately end badly.

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#2926336 14-Jun-2022 10:21

elpenguino:

I would disagree with you there and the facts agree with me. The massacres at Aramoana and Christchurch mosque were both done by licensed firearm owners.

Having fewer licensed MSSAs also means fewer to steal by crims - but crims don't use them for massacres anyway.

The fact don't agree with you at all. Just because those people were licensed means diddly squat especially if the process is flawed.

The new gun laws are deficient in that way owners and guns are registered. This issue was flagged at the time the laws were introduced. If the gun ownership laws had been enacted as the police wanted it would have been far less likely the Christchurc mosque shooting could have taken place.

The current gun laws should have stopped the Christchurch gunman ever getting a licence if the correct licensing procedures had been followed.

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#2926345 14-Jun-2022 10:38

GV27:

elpenguino:

the modern scourge of massacres at the end of gun.

How often have we had 'gun massacres' over a 40 year period? Chch, Aramoana? Would the buyback laws have stopped Rarimu, the Bain family murders, etc? Hyping the dangers of firearms as it applied in NZ retrospectively to make the gun reforms look good is pretty average tbh when for a vast period of that time, we had little to no incidents.

Frankly you had a higher chance of getting wasted by the cops than you did by a civilian packing military firepower.

let's not confuse probability with impact. Yes mass shootings are rare in NZ. But when they happen, they are terrible events.

A bit like plane crashes isnt it. Air travel is very safe but each plane crash is studied so we can make air travel even safer.

The ability to easily carry out a mass shooting has been removed and that's a good thing.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

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#2926349 14-Jun-2022 10:47

Technofreak:

The fact don't agree with you at all. Just because those people were licensed means diddly squat especially if the process is flawed.

The new gun laws are deficient in that way owners and guns are registered. This issue was flagged at the time the laws were introduced. If the gun ownership laws had been enacted as the police wanted it would have been far less likley the Christchurc mosque shooting could have taken place.

The current gun laws should have stopped the Christchurch gunman ever getting a licence if the correct licensing procedures had been followed.

Yes, actually it means a lot, the facts show licensed firearms holders carried out mass shootings. You may not like that fact but it is a fact. That is why MSSAs were removed by licensed owners.

There's already a legal mechanism to remove guns from people without licenses.

I know this is the internet where people argue that black is white and down is up but I would hope GZers would be better than that.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

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#2926356 14-Jun-2022 11:05

elpenguino:

Yes, actually it means a lot, the facts show licensed firearms holders carried out mass shootings. You may not like that fact but it is a fact. That is why MSSAs were removed by licensed owners.

Do you believe that had the gun buyback occurred a year earlier, Christchurch would have been prevented?

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#2926358 14-Jun-2022 11:11

elpenguino:

let's not confuse probability with impact. Yes mass shootings are rare in NZ. But when they happen, they are terrible events.

A bit like plane crashes isnt it. Air travel is very safe but each plane crash is studied so we can make air travel even safer.

I'm not confusing probability with impact, I'm just pointing out that there's hardly sufficient numbers of them in NZ to warrant describing them as a 'scourge'. We are not severely afflicted with them. Maybe the States are, but we are not.

And you can have all the due process and rules in the world but if you do not follow the proper procedures then arguably any firearm law is going to be insufficient.

I refuse to believe that there is a level of buy-back lower than 100% if your argument is that the system should allow for near total failure in nearly every other area.

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#2926375 14-Jun-2022 12:12

elpenguino:

Yes, actually it means a lot, the facts show licensed firearms holders carried out mass shootings. You may not like that fact but it is a fact. That is why MSSAs were removed by licensed owners.

There's already a legal mechanism to remove guns from people without licenses.

You seem fixated on mass shootings. I'm sure the facts will also show they have been carried out by unlicensed owners as well.

As has been already pointed out mass shootings in New Zealand are very rare. The use of MSSA'a is even rarer in New Zealand. There are much higher risk areas when it comes to the risk of being a victim of a shooting here in New Zealand. The change in guns laws and the gun buy back scheme haven't effectively addressed those risk areas. I'll bet none of the gangs handed back their guns. The money spent on the buy back could have been better spent.

You keep banging on about licensed firearm holders. The problem is there is currently no national gun register. The police know who the licensed owners are but they have no idea about what guns they may have. There in lies parts of the problem. Apparently there's one coming next year. Why has it taken so long?

I doubt anyone feels safer because of the gun buy back. I certainly don't and I'm willing to bet there's about 1.5 million Auckander's who don't either right now.

elpenguino:

I know this is the internet where people argue that black is white and down is up but I would hope GZers would be better than that.

Time to hand out some mirrors I think. 😉

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#2926419 14-Jun-2022 12:47

Imo the chch attacker would have significant trouble obtaining the MSSA illegally in the new environment and it probably would not have happened. Likewise reducing the numbers available.

But yeah 'gang' use of firearms in NZ completely different issue. Don't confuse the two.

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#2926427 14-Jun-2022 13:00

Incidentally almost every government economic forecast has been rendered obsolete by the huge switch to risk-off in the last three weeks and we're now staring down the barrel of a recession/prolonged downturn and stagflation.

I suspect we'll see Robbo start to make noises and send messages about what to expect from his side as nothing they have done is really in line with this kind of rapid down-turn and as such they will need to start softening the blow that looks like it is coming, whether they like it or not. And no, calling this one 'transitory' like they did with inflation probably won't count, and I don't think pointing to other countries having problems will be of much comfort to Kiwis facing reduced hours or job losses.

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#2926430 14-Jun-2022 13:03

gzt: Imo the chch attacker would have significant trouble obtaining the MSSA illegally in the new environment and it probably would not have happened. Likewise reducing the numbers available.

But yeah 'gang' use of firearms in NZ completely different issue. Don't confuse the two.

I am genuinely shocked that anyone could believe that someone prepared to plan and execute a plan to murder 50+ innocent people, couldn't/wouldn't have obtained an MSSA illegally, or found another way to have caused mass murder.

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#2926435 14-Jun-2022 13:20

That's pretty much how these things happen in USA. Easily available automatic weapons. These people are not criminal geniuses.

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