Vodafone takes Telecom to courts over interference of new network

Forums › Spark New Zealand (including Skinny and BigPipe) › Vodafone takes Telecom to courts over interference of new network

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133 posts

Master Geek
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#213248 7-May-2009 17:30

PaulBrislen:
...
2: We haven't known about it for six months - Telecom knew about it in November but we only found out in February. That's in the NBR story on the court case.

Paul

So VF has known that it has been having dropped calls since February, and only raised the 111 card a week out from the XT network launch?
This may just be my take on this, but VF was holding onto this little jem until they could get the best leverage out of it. Shame on you!
If VF was doing everything it could for it's customers, then it would have red flagged the dropped 111 calls the second it knew about it.

ajobbins

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#213262 7-May-2009 18:49

It may be that some of the initial comments bagging Vodafone came from customers (Past and Present), who have had a negative experience with Vodafone perhaps with the issues being discussed, but more likley with other unrelated issues such as a poor customer service experience or billing issues. They have assumed Vodafone was at fault based on their past (negative) experience with the company.

Maybe not the case (Feel free to correct me), just my 2c...

exportgoldman

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#213266 7-May-2009 18:51

Behodar: I saw something earlier today stating that the launch events will still take place on the 13th, even though network signups won't be available on that date. I wonder whether phone, plan and pricing information will still be released on the 13th at these events.

I thought that was strange when I heard it this afternoon, but I can confirm it as well. The launch dates still seem to be on, even thougth they arn't actually 'launching' anything.

I guess the idea is they can still claim to be New Zealand's first 3G nationwide network - even if their competition made them wait cause they wanted to take it for another test drive. :)

I notice www.testdrive.co.nz doesn't have a countdown timer yet, but I've seen two dates published, the 28th and the 31st of May for T Day.

Tyler - Parnell Geek - iPhone 3G - Lenovo X301 - Kaseya - Great Western Steak House, these are some of my favourite things.

ITaintme

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Wannabe Geek

#213289 7-May-2009 20:11

Did no one else go to court? The interference was preventable and Telecom knew it was likely to cause a problem for Voda and NZComms but didn't fix the filters - was $2m too much to spend to protect users? Funny it wouldn't fix it for an actual competitor, only one in future, NZComms. Usually I just watch these forums but some of the posts are so incredible its unbelievable I couldn't resist a post. If its ok to bring in new tech, knowing its likely to interfere with what others are already providing, and quietly buy off the only other party who's gonna complain so you can complain about bully boy tactics, we're in big trouble here. Telecom showed its usual colours and MED should have fixed telecom when NZComms told the about it. they ain't getting another cent of my money.
The posters with RF expertise seem to be the only ones posting with any sense. Telecom knew filter would fix things but decided to go ahead without them. Now it has to fit them before it switches the transmitters back on. Yeah sure it was all Voda's fault . . .

bbman

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Ultimate Geek
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#213292 7-May-2009 20:32

ITaintme: Did no one else go to court? The interference was preventable and Telecom knew it was likely to cause a problem for Voda and NZComms but didn't fix the filters - was $2m too much to spend to protect users? Funny it wouldn't fix it for an actual competitor, only one in future, NZComms. Usually I just watch these forums but some of the posts are so incredible its unbelievable I couldn't resist a post. If its ok to bring in new tech, knowing its likely to interfere with what others are already providing, and quietly buy off the only other party who's gonna complain so you can complain about bully boy tactics, we're in big trouble here. Telecom showed its usual colours and MED should have fixed telecom when NZComms told the about it. they ain't getting another cent of my money.

The posters with RF expertise seem to be the only ones posting with any sense. Telecom knew filter would fix things but decided to go ahead without them. Now it has to fit them before it switches the transmitters back on. Yeah sure it was all Voda's fault . . .

"Telecom showed its usual colours and MED should have fixed telecom when NZComms told the about it. they ain't getting another cent of my money"

WTF.. Actually from the accounts of many the agressor has changed from Telecom to Vodafone... lets be clear here, Vodafone is a global giant, Telecom is a minnow! Also Telecom was operating with in its license conditions according to the MED.

Also if you bothered to read the posts & media reports Telecom has already installed 900 filters on sites and is completing the rest. Vodafone also have work to do as well!

By the way the transmitters arn't off! just not being ramped up for new connections.

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grant_k

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#213300 7-May-2009 21:06

wtf: ...it would appear that the intermodulation is taking place at the transmitting end, the filters have to go there. Filters at the receiver would only help if the unwanted interference signal was being generated there. In the stereo case it is demodulation rather than intermodulation, but then they are really much the same sort of process, eg multiplicative mixing.
...
A comment on masthead amplifiers....these are used to improve the noise performance of the system. If your receiver is at the bottom of the pole with a given noise floor, it will have a certain minimum signal level that gives the minimum workable signal to noise ratio. Now if you put a lossy feeder ahead of it, the required signal level will be higher by the amount of loss in the feeder. At higher frequencies the feeder loss can approach the height gain, eg you are not gaining anything. So what you do is put a low noise amplifier up the mast close to the antennae. This should have enough gain to make up the loss in the feeder, and a little more so the front need end noise of the actual receiver is not too significant. You can also compensate for the loss in any needed filters in this way, by placing them after the amplifier, but the limitation is that if the amplifier does not have some filtering ahead of it, it may get swamped by unwanted signals, causing blocking or intermodulation as was discussed above. This is of course a pretty basic introduction, if you need to know more there are whole books on the subject.

Thanks for a very informative post.

It is much less common in my experience for intermodulation to take place in a transmitter than a receiver, though certainly not unheard of.

One mechanism that comes to mind is for the signals from Vodafone's Tx to make their way back through Telecom's antenna system, couplers and feeders into the output stage of Telecom's Tx, by brute force due to their strength and proximity. Once in the output stage, some multiplicative mixing (due to non-linearity) takes place and the resulting signals are re-radiated where they fall In-Band so far as Vodafone's nearby Rx is concerned.

Clearly this could only happen where Telecom's and Vodafone's sites are very close to each other (perhaps co-located). Secondly, one or more panels from the respective antennae would need to be more-or-less directly pointing at each other.

A suitable filter to resolve this problem may in fact be a Band-Stop filter tuned to the frequency of Vodafone's Tx, rather than Telecom's Tx.

If anyone has alternative explanations of the mechanism by which Intermodulation could be generated in Telecom's Transmitter, or in their transmitting system as a whole, it would be great if they could share it (assuming they are at liberty to do so).

All of this assumes that -- in fact -- the interference is being caused by Intermodulation in Telecom's Transmitting System. Other than the post quoted above, I haven't seen any published facts to back this up.

What we do know for sure is that: Filters on selected Telecom Transmitter Sites apparently resolve the problem.

What we don't yet know is why this is necessary, when apparently, Telecom's Transmitters have been given a clean bill of health by the MED so far as Out-of-Band Emissions are concerned. Assuming this is true, and wasn't just made up as part of the pre-hearing jostling between legal teams, it would appear to leave Intermodulation in Telecom's Transmitting System as the only plausible explanation.

It all seems a little odd though

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Behodar

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#213301 7-May-2009 21:17

grant_k: What we don't yet know is why this is necessary, when apparently, Telecom's Transmitters have been given a clean bill of health by the MED so far as Out-of-Band Emissions are concerned. Assuming this is true, and wasn't just made up as part of the pre-hearing jostling between legal teams, it would appear to leave Intermodulation in Telecom's Transmitting System as the only plausible explanation.

There is a copy of MED/RSM's letter available here (scroll down).

w2krules

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Ultimate Geek
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#213310 7-May-2009 21:54

Behodar:
grant_k: What we don't yet know is why this is necessary, when apparently, Telecom's Transmitters have been given a clean bill of health by the MED so far as Out-of-Band Emissions are concerned. Assuming this is true, and wasn't just made up as part of the pre-hearing jostling between legal teams, it would appear to leave Intermodulation in Telecom's Transmitting System as the only plausible explanation.

There is a copy of MED/RSM's letter available here (scroll down).

Interesting; it specifically mentions GSM interference, not WCDMA. So it appears that the Vodafone 900 MHz WCDMA network does not experience interference. I assume that this uses different frequencies to their GSM network?

I was a geek before the word was invented!

grant_k

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#213311 7-May-2009 21:57

Behodar: There is a copy of MED/RSM's letter available here (scroll down).

Thanks very much for that. It is great to see in writing what has been alluded to by the various lawyers, journos etc.

I thought this part on the first page of the MED letter was particularly interesting:

We have investigated specific Co-Location Issues in Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch...

So, it is a Co-Location issue as I suspected (see post above).

Secondly, on Page 2 of the MED letter:

...I understand that Telecom is presently in the process of installing filters on W-CDMA transmitters to eliminate actual or potential interference to GSM services.

It should also be kept in mind that this letter from MED was written in the context of interference between Telecom and NZ Comms, as well as Vodafone.

So, by installing the filters, Telecom were attempting to prevent actual interference to NZ Comms and Vodafone as well as potential interference that might occur in future. This is interesting, given that MED had already stated that Telecom's Transmitters complied with the terms of their licence. In theory, Telecom shouldn't have needed to do this, but there is no doubting that the interference is happening in practice.

It would appear that either:

- MED's standards are too lax

Or:

- The Spectrum Management Plan is flawed. This possibility was alluded to in a statement from NZ Comms, published on NBR's web site earlier.

In any case, it looks as though Telecom were already committed to going the extra mile here; Vodafone knew the timetable for completion of the filter installations, and that would have been where the matter ended, except Telecom jumped the gun by bringing forward the launch of their XT Mobile Network.

It would keep things nice and simple if the Telecom Tx Filters provide an adequate solution on their own.

However, the document linked to above, also includes the following statement on Page 2 of the letter from Telecom's Group General Counsel Tristan Gilbertson:

As a result of this exercise, it is now accepted by both parties' technical teams that, until you rectify the situation with your mast head amplifiers, your interference issues can not be resolved.

Thus it would seem that there is work to be done at Vodafone's end as well.

I have yet to see any statement from a Vodafone person which acknowledges this situation. They have been at pains to lay all the blame at Telecom's feet.

Indio

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Master Geek
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#213313 7-May-2009 22:02

PaulBrislen: mass congestion from hoardes of iPhone users "clogging" a pristine network with their demand for content?

I'm joking (seriously, Apple, I'm only joking!) but 3G issues do tend to be around congestion because frankly you guys do use far more data than ever before. We're working on it constantly and now that our engineers aren't tied up writing affidavits for court we'll be able to put them to better use on our own network.
cheers
Paul

What a lot of of bs!!

bbman

646 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#213315 7-May-2009 22:06

Indio:
PaulBrislen: mass congestion from hoardes of iPhone users "clogging" a pristine network with their demand for content?

I'm joking (seriously, Apple, I'm only joking!) but 3G issues do tend to be around congestion because frankly you guys do use far more data than ever before. We're working on it constantly and now that our engineers aren't tied up writing affidavits for court we'll be able to put them to better use on our own network.
cheers
Paul

What a lot of of bs!!

Absolutely let the techs and engineers do what they do best!

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grant_k

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#213316 7-May-2009 22:08

Indio:
PaulBrislen: mass congestion from hoardes of iPhone users "clogging" a pristine network with their demand for content?

I'm joking (seriously, Apple, I'm only joking!) but 3G issues do tend to be around congestion because frankly you guys do use far more data than ever before. We're working on it constantly and now that our engineers aren't tied up writing affidavits for court we'll be able to put them to better use on our own network.
cheers
Paul

What a lot of of bs!!

Aw, come on, give Paul a break.
PR practitioners are paid handsomely to promulgate this sort of SPIN, don't be too hard on him...

bbman

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Ultimate Geek
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#213317 7-May-2009 22:10

True true, he is only doing his job!

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mjb

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#213322 7-May-2009 22:19

brentbart: There is a saying?I like ... "its better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt". Perhaps some need to learn that on this forum.

Aye. So much mud slinging and bias that I actually want the 90 minutes back that I've spent reading this thread.

Granted, there was some vaguely technical content that was actually 95% correct.

contentsofsignaturemaysettleduringshipping

ITaintme

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Wannabe Geek

#213344 7-May-2009 22:41

bbman: Also Telecom was operating with in its license conditions according to the MED.

Also if you bothered to read the posts & media reports Telecom has already installed 900 filters on sites and is completing the rest. Vodafone also have work to do as well!

By the way the transmitters arn't off! just not being ramped up for new connections.

Did you read the MED letter? It doesn't say Telecom is complying with its licence, it says with the terms on its licence. To comply with a licence here you have to comply with all the Radcomms Act whcih says you're outside you're licence if you don't comply with licence conditions, management right conditions and IRR. IRR compliance is Telecom's problem. MED should never have let them get away with that. The filters should have been on before they powered up. If settlement was about saving money, they would have settled and agreed to put the filters on before the court case was heard. They just wanted to continue the pr spin. do you really buy that or are you an employee?

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