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Topic # 17333 21-Nov-2007 21:42
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A few 2nd tier Telco's seemed shocked by Telecom's details today of their FTTN and NGN details being released and had nothing better do to that complain!

Here's a detailed list of Telecom's planned rollout which I believe will also include a switch to the NGN phone service at the same time or shortly afterwards.

http://www.ucll.co.nz/cabinetisation


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  Reply # 96285 21-Nov-2007 21:50
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My question is what would these access seekers be saying if we fast forward to March 31st, with separation in place, Telecom Retail was going to undertake such investment? Would they complain? I don't think they would have a basis to-do so in a separated Telecom world, but then I think they don't have the basis to complain now...

nzbnw








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  Reply # 96288 21-Nov-2007 21:56
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AS I commented on Ben's blog:


I always believed and wrote on Geekzone that unbundling the local loop is no incentive to investments.

Companies simply wanted to have access to copper so they could use the existing network to distribute services with little or no investment at all in infrastructure - I don’t count placing some DSLAMS around the country as “infrastructure”.

ULL does not make for a competitive environment because those companies will always want to ride on someone else’s investment. And if Telecom New Zealand creates a new network those other telcos and ISPs will cry for access to that, and complain when Telecom charges for it.

I think ULL is just some marketing campaign thing - “We hate the big players” say the telcos who do not want to invest.







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  Reply # 96291 21-Nov-2007 22:06
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freitasm: I don't know what those ISPs are complaining. The first time "cabinetisation plans" were discussed here on Geekzone was back in May 2006!


You also had the Telecom / Acatel Press Release here which dates back to August 2005. Telecom's plans for a FTTN network have been common knowledge since around 2002 when they entered into a deal with Alcatel and the plans were all virtually set in stone by mid 2005 when the Alcatel deal was signed.

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  Reply # 96292 21-Nov-2007 22:26
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it demonstrates a couple of interesting side effects of the industry at the moment -1) some of the smaller players are totally against anything another player might do that puts them at a disadvantage (weren't they complaining the other week about Vodafone cross subsidation or something like that?  I loose count of the complaints), -2) the government has created a rod for its own back by putting in place an environment where smaller players expect to stop other competitors by legislation rather than competition.

I'll be interested to see how the gov reacts to this one. The whole point of competition was to give the industry (telecom) a kick in the pants and encourage investment and innovation. But if a major like Telecom invests in a technology that is good for broadband but disadvanages smaller players - what is the gov going to do? Go for the better performing technology - or hold it back for the sake of competition?  Scary......

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  Reply # 96294 21-Nov-2007 22:29
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by the way guys (SB, Freitasm) - good interesting posts and information. I should have joined geekzone years ago instead of being staved to death and numbed by a steady diet of media FUD.  Lots of interesting comment here backed up with specific links to reference information.  Almost the exact opposite of what you find in the newspapers.

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  Reply # 96298 21-Nov-2007 22:41
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nzbnw: My question is what would these access seekers be saying if we fast forward to March 31st, with separation in place, Telecom Retail was going to undertake such investment?

That's an interesting point...

Under Operational Separation, would it be permissable for Telecom Retail to invest in Network Infrastructure, or would that be undertaken by the new ANS unit?

Today on National Radio, I heard Scott Bartlett (CEO of Orcon) whinging about how their $400k investment in the Ponsonby exchange was now worthless and would have to be ripped out.  My heart bleeds for the man -- the concept of cabinetisation has been well signalled in advance as others have stated above.  I don't know why they didn't utilise a smaller piece of equipment which could also be used in a roadside cabinet rather than taking up a good chunk of rack-space as per the published photographs.

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  Reply # 96301 21-Nov-2007 23:06
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Well that is the thing. I'm not completely sure who would take ownership of such investment pre separation. Telecom Wholesale is another option to throw in the mix. Seeing each 'company' under the Telecom group with have a CEO reporting to the Telecom Group CEO, one would imagine that each is out to maximise their own profits, and that may include investment such as this.








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  Reply # 96331 22-Nov-2007 08:50
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Looks like telecom is still doing the little shifty guy act,  with their plan to roll out 2000 roadside cabinets in the next two years,
when there hankies are still wet from crying 'we can only physically manage to open 60 exchanges a year'...

And Ernie has also posted on TUANZ about the issue.

Ernie wrote:
How can Telecom now look its wholesale customers in the eye? It has encouraged them to invest in LLU in a group of exchanges, let them get several months down the track, then pulled the rug from under their business model.




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  Reply # 96333 22-Nov-2007 09:00
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The Telecom bashing that has occured in the last 24 hours has left me lost for words.

Telecom have been very open about their plans since 2002 to move towards a FTTN network as part of their NGN with VoIP soft switches for their voice component. This announcement should come as a surprise to nobody.

Do people in the telco industry bother to even keep up with what is happening in NZ?

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  Reply # 96334 22-Nov-2007 09:00

Actually, this isn't a case of ISPs whining without reason at all... this is far worse than that.


Everyone who follows the telco sector knows Telecom has been talking about cabinetisation for years now. I wrote a column about the dangers of cabinetisation for Computerworld quite some time ago.


Cabinetisation has a useful role to play in extending the reach of any network. Telcos put an exchange in the heart of an area of high demand and extend the reach of a network by putting a cabinet in area of lower demand. When demand increases, the cabinet gets upgraded to an exchange or similar.


Telecom's stated aim was to extend the reach of its copper network by putting cabinets in the less dense areas. Just last month Telecom announced it would tackle the rural and regional towns in New Zealand with just this kind of investment:


“Specifically, we plan to install more fast ADSL2+ technology, more fibre to the street, and create a next generation network capable of supporting a wide range of world class Internet Protocol-based services for our wholesale and retail customers.


“A key element of the Undertakings we submitted yesterday is our proposal to accelerate the first phase of an enhanced, next generation fixed network IP footprint to all towns with 500 or more lines, across rural and urban New Zealand.


“This enhanced network is world-class and will support the provision of sophisticated offerings, including faster broadband up to 20 Mbps, and VoIP services.

“And investment in fibre can support new technologies and services reliant on even faster speeds in the future.”


Examples of townships that will benefit from the enhanced access network include Edgecumbe and Ngatea in the North Island, and Methven, Riverton, Pleasant Point and Waikouaiti in the South Island.


Instead, Telecom has announced it will strip out the key exchanges from the urban areas in Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch - coincidentally the same exchanges that its competitors had said they would unbundle first.


Most cynically of all, Telecom has included those exchanges which are being used to trial unbundling (Ponsonby and Glenfield) meaning any investment made in those exchanges has been a complete waste of time. I stood with Mark Ratcliffe at the press conference at the Ponsonby exchange. He heralded it as a giant leap forward for the country.


The Commerce Commission and the industry as a whole had put sub-loop unbundling (what you need to gain access to a cabinet) on the back burner

while we sorted out LLU at a cabinet level. We don't have any rules or procedures in place for cabinets - it will be years before that happens.


The ISPs have been working on unbundling with Telecom in this new era of cooperation for more than a year. It seems to me to be quite astounding

that Telecom would suddenly announce it was cabinetising exactly those exchanges where its competitors were introducing unbundling. I cannot help

but think the Telecom of old is alive and well and entirely willing to continue subverting the process we've all worked so hard to deliver.


Yes, the ISPs can gripe about anything and I for one get tired of hearing about it. But this isn't just a complaint about not getting everything their own way. This is a legitimate complaint about having everything we've worked on for so very long taken away.





Paul Brislen
Head of Corporate Communications
Vodafone

http://forum.vodafone.co.nz


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  Reply # 96341 22-Nov-2007 09:44
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Like simon and others here I am astounded at how odd some of this complaining is. But on the other hand having not been party to LLU discussions I dont know exactly how Telecom put forward its side of the story/deal, so purhaps Telecom has misled other parties at the table.

But Telecoms plans to cabinetise and introduce an NGN has been well detailed for some 2-3yrs or more. The fact that at least 600 if not more of the 700 exchanges were to be deleted was also well known.

When the LLU requirements started taking a life my first reaction was, damn, so what happens now to the NGN we will never progress.

Exactly how do Telecoms competitors believe that they can benifit customers who are not within 1.5-2km of a DSLAM without a redistribution of the Local loop, or are they only interested in major exchanges where a majority of lines meet a 1.5-2km contraint.

I have always been a strong believer in certain elements of infrastructure should be retained under state control, ie rail, powergen, roading, and yes the local loop. Unfortunately at this stage it is unlikely that the copper will go back to state ownership, (all though still on the cards if Im not mistaken), but for Telecom to at last move forward to reducing the local loop size and feeding fibre further out into the street to enable better broadband rather than duplicating services in major exchanges (as its competitors are doing) in my view is a very postive step forward. Are Telecoms competitors going to make that level of investment ouside of major loop areas?

Cyril



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  Reply # 96342 22-Nov-2007 09:46
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Why did nobody seem to raise this very valid issue earlier earlier?

I remember posting about this exact same issue last year when the ULL plans were leaked. ISP's were getting excited about deploying gear in Telecom exchanges yet it was very well know that (at that stage) by mid 2007 Telecom planned to have it's first customers on the NGN and was. The NGN has slipped further behind schedule but nothing has changed in regards to the physical structure of the network - that virtually every existing NEAX switch in the country would be obsolete within 5 years and that Telecom would be getting rid of virtually every exchange building and replacing these with FFTN node cabinets.

Why in the excitement of the ULL announcement did not a single Telco seem to publically raise the issue that it was really a dud deal and that it would actually mean nothing being able to co-site gear in Telecom exchanges when those exchanges wouldn't exist and that the announcement didn't extend to co-siting in FTTN node cabinets?

I said it then and I'll say it again - Telecom NZ will have an even tighter strangehold on the telecommunications sector in 5 years than what it does now. There is nothing to stop telco's investing once Telecom's NGN exists and providing service.

In reality I kind of agree with some of Rod Drury's comments about governments providing infrastructure as the Australian Government are doing. The government could easily fund the FTTN network and establish a wholesale provider to manage this service. Why did nobody seem to get onto this?



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  Reply # 96343 22-Nov-2007 09:47
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PaulBrislen:

Yes, the ISPs can gripe about anything and I for one get tired of hearing about it. But this isn't just a complaint about not getting everything their own way. This is a legitimate complaint about having everything we've worked on for so very long taken away.

 

Even I remember reading years ago about the cabinetisation plans and their plans to sell off the (now highly sought after) properties the exchanges are on. 

 

The plans make sense from a technical level, the copper runs were up to 8KM, as specified by the Post Office at the time, which later turned into Telecom is too long for data. The exchanges all needed 'Tea and Coffee making facilities" and toilets / Staff rooms etc and were truly a relic of the past.

 

The gear has shrunk so much, and the copper runs need to be within 2KM for any technology current or in the horizon to work with sufficient speed. I'm suprised that the Communications Manager of New Zealands second largest Telecommunications company finds this all such a suprise, or is even complaining about noncompetitive practices, considering that you are clearly in breach of competitive clauses yourself, and did it in such a blatent way yourself (Number Portability for prepay customers.) But I disgress

 

This has been coming for a long time, Telecom has been very open about their plans, and any techie worth it's salt knew about these plans and has for years. This is not a shock, or big news to anyone which has actually been following this from a technical level.

 

Why not take the biggest exchanges to cabinets, the most in demand exchanges would benefit the most from closer copper runs and faster speeds no? (Unless it's within a very compact footprint like apartment buildings, but from what I have seen these are cabinets already.

Heres a suggestion for Vodafone - You are the ONLY company with a nationwide network which can actually compete with Telecom, why not stop moaning, and get on with actually competing with them.

 

Get your mobile network fixed, so it doesn't drop calls in little known areas like Auckland's State Highway 1 (Mt Wellington, Newmarket, Harbour Bridge) Mission Bay, Mt Roskill, Parnell etc. Our account rep said to phone up and log these, which I did 4-5 times a day for 3 months.. no change. Tried 3 different phones, all new, different models. It's your overloaded and misconfigured network. 

 

Make your broadband a product worth actually using, instead of the 1000ms ping times and sub dialup speeds which I can only seem to get on your network now days. Make your landline ISP worth actually using, I moved away from them after paying for and failing to actually use my allocation of 50GB a month for 3 months because your network is so slow - and yes not my line, I can fill 200-300 GB using the same phone line/router/computer with XNET. 

 

Fix your billing problems with ihug, I'm still waiting on enquiries to my bill 5 months later (still havn't paid, still getting a dialtone, still not getting my billing questions answered.)

 

 

Reduce your costs to at least match the rip off pricing Telecom offers for overuse ($20/GB instead of $10240/GB) 

 

 





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  Reply # 96348 22-Nov-2007 10:06
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sbiddle:

Here's a detailed list of Telecom's planned rollout which I believe will also include a switch to the NGN phone service at the same time or shortly afterwards.

http://www.ucll.co.nz/cabinetisation



There doesn't seem to have been any comment on the idea that whilst the new speak "Metallic Path Facilty" shifts to a cabinet closer to the customers, the cable isn't necessarily cut away from the old exchange if Telecom still wants to provide voice service from there.

Unless I've read that wrong why can't the competitors also choose to connect to the point that voice uses while it still exists?

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