Teacher strikes

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Geek
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#2247646 29-May-2019 11:22

Bluntj:

...
What I am saying, is that teachers should take the average $10k/annum pay rise and say they have done well this pay round. Next pay round they can ask for the same again if they desire.
...

Except they haven't been offered an average $10k/annum pay rise. The current offer is 3%/annum which would amount to little more than $2000 pay rise.

evnafets

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#2247657 29-May-2019 11:40

voicetech:

Bluntj:

...
What I am saying, is that teachers should take the average $10k/annum pay rise and say they have done well this pay round. Next pay round they can ask for the same again if they desire.
...

Except they haven't been offered an average $10k/annum pay rise. The current offer is 3%/annum which would amount to little more than $2000 pay rise.

There is a huge difference between $10000 and $2000. Reference to back up your assertion please?
The $10K pay rise I have found reference to here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/112534845/governments-new-12b-offer-for-teachers-best-offer-in-a-decade

The latest offer - made to almost 30,000 primary teachers, 2,000 primary principals, and 22,000 secondary teachers - would result in most primary school teachers receiving a raise of $10,000 over the next two years, Hipkins says.

Granted it is a quote from the government minister. But it does reference a $10k/annum pay rise - which will be graduallly implemented over the next few years.

I presume your figure of $2000 pay rise is for one year? Or can you point to another reference?

I'm just wanting to make sure that we are comparing apples with apples here :-)

EDIT: Link to NZEI page analysing the offer: https://campaigns.nzei.org.nz/time/march-2019-offer-ptca-ppca/#teachers

voicetech

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Geek
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#2247663 29-May-2019 11:52

evnafets:

voicetech:

Bluntj:

...
What I am saying, is that teachers should take the average $10k/annum pay rise and say they have done well this pay round. Next pay round they can ask for the same again if they desire.
...

Except they haven't been offered an average $10k/annum pay rise. The current offer is 3%/annum which would amount to little more than $2000 pay rise.

There is a huge difference between $10000 and $2000. Reference to back up your assertion please?
The $10K pay rise I have found reference to here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/112534845/governments-new-12b-offer-for-teachers-best-offer-in-a-decade

The latest offer - made to almost 30,000 primary teachers, 2,000 primary principals, and 22,000 secondary teachers - would result in most primary school teachers receiving a raise of $10,000 over the next two years, Hipkins says.

Granted it is a quote from the government minister. But it does reference a $10k/annum pay rise - which will be graduallly implemented over the next few years.

I presume your figure of $2000 pay rise is for one year? Or can you point to another reference?

I'm just wanting to make sure that we are comparing apples with apples here :-)

The $10,000 figure mentioned is over multiple years, and for teachers at the top of the pay scale.
When everyone else (private sector) talk about pay rises they talk about what they'll get in the current year, not over 2-3 years.

I'm referring to the 3% mentioned on these two pages:

https://www.education.govt.nz/news/fact-sheet-on-new-offer-to-primary-teachers-and-principals/
https://campaigns.nzei.org.nz/time/sept-offer-ptca-ppca-2/

3% is higher than CPI but won't do much to address teacher shortages in my opinion.

Geektastic

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#2247673 29-May-2019 12:16

tdgeek:
Geektastic:

I came here from a country were booking 3 weeks ahead to see the doctor was not at all unusual - although in return, it was free of charge.

It's fine that teachers change career. Everyone can do so. Eventually, if there are not enough teachers available, the market will correct that by forcing the government to deal with it. There are a number of ways of dealing with it, in the same manner that two of the doctors from our local practice are not from NZ. Neither was the surgeon who operated on me last.

It's not fine to demand heaps more cash from people who have to work to earn that cash and disrupt the education of the pupils as a form of blackmail to get it.

You avoided the doctor question

We are at the point of the Govt dealing with it, so you advocate immigrating teachers? The problem of pay and conditions still exists though. Do we bring in teachers from third world countries as they may feel the pay and conditions are good? Bunnings and The Warehouse do that, but that's just goods, not people.

No I didn't. I said I was quite used to waiting to see a GP.

It wouldn't bother me and if it did I'd make alternative arrangements.

Geektastic

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#2247677 29-May-2019 12:20

chevrolux:
It's not fine to demand heaps more cash from people who have to work to earn that cash and disrupt the education of the pupils as a form of blackmail to get it.

The argument to not paying tax of "but I worked hard for my money" has to be the most annoying come back seen from the right.

No one else works as hard as you? The guys shifting tons and tons of stock in a store room, pulling 12 hour shifts, don't 'work as hard' as say an accountant or lawyer sitting in their office?! Biggest fallacy ever.

You misunderstand. We will ALL have to pay more tax. At least, those who are actually net payers will anyway. It's not restricted to one sector of tax payers.

frankv

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#2247683 29-May-2019 12:30

voicetech:

Bluntj:

...
What I am saying, is that teachers should take the average $10k/annum pay rise and say they have done well this pay round. Next pay round they can ask for the same again if they desire.
...

Except they haven't been offered an average $10k/annum pay rise. ...

... and they can't come back next year, or the year after... it has a 3 year term.

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frankv

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#2247686 29-May-2019 12:35

Geektastic: You misunderstand. We will ALL have to pay more tax. At least, those who are actually net payers will anyway. It's not restricted to one sector of tax payers.

I don't mind paying a bit more tax. So long as we ALL pay more tax. And the people and corporations who currently avoid are made to pay their share.

tdgeek

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#2247690 29-May-2019 12:53

Geektastic:
chevrolux:

It's not fine to demand heaps more cash from people who have to work to earn that cash and disrupt the education of the pupils as a form of blackmail to get it.

The argument to not paying tax of "but I worked hard for my money" has to be the most annoying come back seen from the right.

No one else works as hard as you? The guys shifting tons and tons of stock in a store room, pulling 12 hour shifts, don't 'work as hard' as say an accountant or lawyer sitting in their office?! Biggest fallacy ever.

You misunderstand. We will ALL have to pay more tax. At least, those who are actually net payers will anyway. It's not restricted to one sector of tax payers.

You mention net payers frequently. So those that pay less or no tax due to benefits are a problem? They actually pay tax, refer to the tax tables, there is no section that states Page 6 The Tax Free Earners Page

frankv

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#2247692 29-May-2019 13:01

tdgeek:

You mention net payers frequently. So those that pay less or no tax due to benefits are a problem? They actually pay tax, refer to the tax tables, there is no section that states Page 6 The Tax Free Earners Page

Oh, I see. I thought he was referring to the wealthy with trusts and Cayman Islands accounts and so on, who get all the benefits of living in NZ but avoid paying their share. I think you'll find that there *is* a Tax Free Earners Page... it's just not accessible to 99% of us.

tdgeek

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#2247696 29-May-2019 13:09

frankv:

tdgeek:

You mention net payers frequently. So those that pay less or no tax due to benefits are a problem? They actually pay tax, refer to the tax tables, there is no section that states Page 6 The Tax Free Earners Page

Oh, I see. I thought he was referring to the wealthy with trusts and Cayman Islands accounts and so on, who get all the benefits of living in NZ but avoid paying their share. I think you'll find that there *is* a Tax Free Earners Page... it's just not accessible to 99% of us.

IIRC GT refers to the many that don't pay net tax. As if thats not fair. They do. If I was on a benefit, I pay the same tax as everyone else. As per the tax tables

It irks me when those less fortunate are pigeon holed into the Doesn't Contribute box

JayADee

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#2247867 29-May-2019 17:25

evnafets:
voicetech:

Bluntj:

...
What I am saying, is that teachers should take the average $10k/annum pay rise and say they have done well this pay round. Next pay round they can ask for the same again if they desire.
...

Except they haven't been offered an average $10k/annum pay rise. The current offer is 3%/annum which would amount to little more than $2000 pay rise.

There is a huge difference between $10000 and $2000. Reference to back up your assertion please?
The $10K pay rise I have found reference to here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/112534845/governments-new-12b-offer-for-teachers-best-offer-in-a-decade

The latest offer - made to almost 30,000 primary teachers, 2,000 primary principals, and 22,000 secondary teachers - would result in most primary school teachers receiving a raise of $10,000 over the next two years, Hipkins says.

Granted it is a quote from the government minister. But it does reference a $10k/annum pay rise - which will be graduallly implemented over the next few years.

I presume your figure of $2000 pay rise is for one year? Or can you point to another reference?

I'm just wanting to make sure that we are comparing apples with apples here :-)

EDIT: Link to NZEI page analysing the offer: https://campaigns.nzei.org.nz/time/march-2019-offer-ptca-ppca/#teachers

Your article at https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/112534845/governments-new-12b-offer-for-teachers-best-offer-in-a-decade says 'The latest offer - made to almost 30,000 primary teachers, 2,000 primary principals, and 22,000 secondary teachers - would result in most primary school teachers receiving a raise of $10,000 over the next two years, Hipkins says.'

If you believe the government's spin there that's still only 5k a year for 2 years but in actual fact the offer is indeed 3 percent a year for 3 years, which for the average teacher is not going to be 5 k a year, at the very top of the scale of $78000 it's $2340.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/05/fact-checking-the-teachers-pay-deal-is-it-as-good-as-the-government-says.html

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quickymart

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#2247946 29-May-2019 19:41

Dial111:

I am 100% in full support of Teachers if it will help my child be in an environment where her teacher cares about their job and will nurture her to her best abilities.

However, I've lost count on how many strikes that have happened this year and it is really starting to affect my pocket now with organising daycare which isn't cheap and/or using my annual leave to accommodate.

This, today was majorly expensive for me as I had to get someone in at short notice.

tdgeek

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#2247949 29-May-2019 19:45

quickymart:

Dial111:

I am 100% in full support of Teachers if it will help my child be in an environment where her teacher cares about their job and will nurture her to her best abilities.

However, I've lost count on how many strikes that have happened this year and it is really starting to affect my pocket now with organising daycare which isn't cheap and/or using my annual leave to accommodate.

This, today was majorly expensive for me as I had to get someone in at short notice.

I'm involved but no expense. Its a hard one. I feel the consensus is that many feel for the teachers, but there is an after effect on others, such as you

Loismustdye

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#2247988 29-May-2019 19:46

As with all these cases, the dhb/ministries etc like to include “creep” in their statements to the public to make the offer seem much better than what it is. And they always argue that this “creep” is a cost in the contract offer, again to make their viewpoint more agreeable to the public.

Creep is the steps or yearly increments within the contract
The teachers contract has in it annual pay increase increments to recognise increasing experience up to say 6-7 years experience.
In this case there will be a lot of teachers on the lower rungs of the pay scale, so over the course of the 3year contract they will go up a step in the pay scale each year, with each of those increments having the % increase applied as well.
So when the ministry says some teachers getting $10k a year as part of the contract, they are using the steps within the existing contract are part of their offer, a wee bit dishonest in all fairness.

KiwiSurfer

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#2247989 29-May-2019 19:49

quickymart:

Dial111:

I am 100% in full support of Teachers if it will help my child be in an environment where her teacher cares about their job and will nurture her to her best abilities.

However, I've lost count on how many strikes that have happened this year and it is really starting to affect my pocket now with organising daycare which isn't cheap and/or using my annual leave to accommodate.

This, today was majorly expensive for me as I had to get someone in at short notice.

Sorry to hear that. Did your child(ren)'s school not give you advance notice of the strike via their newsletters etc?

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