Work for dole

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Rikkitic

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#236165 21-May-2018 13:00

My title isn't quite accurate but this seems like a great initiative and it is hard to sum up in a few words. I think welfare dependency is soul-destroying but I also believe there should be welfare and it should be more generous than it currently is. People who are genuinely needy through no fault of their own should not be treated like bludgers. But there also needs to be a way to move out of welfare.

I think benefit recipients should be made to do something to 'earn' their benefit, unless their circumstances genuinely make that impossible. This programme seems like a major step in the right direction.

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#2019764 21-May-2018 13:15

I personally think some form of labor would be suitable for long term job seekers beneficiaries that could translate into a job.

If I say lost my job and went onto the benefit it would be tough for me to slave away and look for a role in the skilled workforce.

Hard one to swallow for some but roading gangs and rec services gangs would be beneficial.

Sidestep

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#2019775 21-May-2018 13:29

In the late 1980's they had a very similar deal.
I left school, registered for the Unemployment Benefit, and was offered work on a P.E.P. scheme (can't remember what that stood for).
It was a work-for-the-dole job being run by the then 'Lands and Survey Dept, Parks & Reserves branch' which almost immediately became D.O.C.

At the end of the (3 month?) scheme some of us were offered full time work with DOC.
I spent a year with a team surveying and maintaining hiking tracks & huts, helping with monitoring and control of introduced pests.

I consider it a privilege to have (been paid to spend) that time out learning about NZ from enthusiastic and knowledgeable people - geologists, botanists, scientists of all sorts.
It was a great experience, I learned a lot, and it was only lack of long term job security (and the whole wobbly NZ economy) that lead to me heading overseas to make my fortune..

MikeB4

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#2019783 21-May-2018 13:40

Works for alms has been tried many times and many times it has failed. It can actually bring about unemployment. I do not believe that simply working to get the JSA is viable as its not just a case of working it is suitable work that is a big problem. Also when someone is committed to a work for assistance scheme they have greater difficulty is attending interviews etc. MSD already works very hard in finding appropriate training and work for their customers and this is reflected in lower durations on benefit.

A lot of the time calls for work for benefit schemes is based on the notion that those receiving income support do not have a desire to work. While that applies to a very very small percentage it has been my experience that the vast majority want to spend teh very least time on income support.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

cruxis

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#2019784 21-May-2018 13:41

What's the hourly rate for work for dole schemes?

matisyahu

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#2019791 21-May-2018 13:50

Rikkitic:

My title isn't quite accurate but this seems like a great initiative and it is hard to sum up in a few words. I think welfare dependency is soul-destroying but I also believe there should be welfare and it should be more generous than it currently is. People who are genuinely needy through no fault of their own should not be treated like bludgers. But there also needs to be a way to move out of welfare.

I think benefit recipients should be made to do something to 'earn' their benefit, unless their circumstances genuinely make that impossible. This programme seems like a major step in the right direction.

The long term consequences of unemployment unfortunately is hidden from view since they come up in different forms but I'd sooner that the unemployed were being paid minimum wage 40 hours per week planting tree's and maintaining a routine so that they're employment ready than the soul destroying process of waiting for a job. That being said, they also need to fix the welfare system - stop punishing the unemployed when they take up seasonal and part time jobs by ridiculously stupid thresholds (IIRC $80 per week before tax) before they start losing the benefit and getting rid of the stand down period (having experienced that as a seasonal worker it is little wonder why so many wait for the ideal job of 40 hours per week than deal with a welfare system that cares very little about your welfare) would reward those who take a chance.

"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick'"

Rikkitic

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#2019806 21-May-2018 14:25

MikeB4:

Works for alms has been tried many times and many times it has failed. It can actually bring about unemployment. I do not believe that simply working to get the JSA is viable as its not just a case of working it is suitable work that is a big problem. Also when someone is committed to a work for assistance scheme they have greater difficulty is attending interviews etc. MSD already works very hard in finding appropriate training and work for their customers and this is reflected in lower durations on benefit.

A lot of the time calls for work for benefit schemes is based on the notion that those receiving income support do not have a desire to work. While that applies to a very very small percentage it has been my experience that the vast majority want to spend teh very least time on income support.

In the specific case I quoted, the girl was drifting and didn't know what she wanted. The DOC experience brought things into focus for her while also giving her employment. How can that be a bad thing?

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rugrat

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#2019819 21-May-2018 14:30

Don't agree with work for the dole!

If they have work they want done should be paid a proper wage.

Going on courses, though I'm fine with for help with motivation, and learning about a good CV, gaining skills and making contacts.

I was unemployed for over 5 years, just was picking up casual work which I declared when got.

They sent me on a course of a subject I was interested in. Also was a weeks work experience, and even though not paid (other then Dole money) enjoyed the week immensely.

Then a three month job came up after, which if memory serves me correctly was going to get paid at the going rate, not work for the dole.

Before I took it up though was offered long term employment with another employer.

While I was happy to get work experience, I wouldn't have agreed if the three month one was just working for dole.

Coil

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#2019823 21-May-2018 14:33

We cannot paint everyone whit one brush but personally I feel that people who are clearly taking advantage of the system by going to those focus group meeting things and talking crap with the boys then going and jumping on the drink in Takapuna bus stops and buying a tinnie then going off home to drink more and get stonned are the ones who need to be given the ultimatum. Not temporary visitors to the system who are genuinely requiring the support through transition.

The DOC or Rec serv alternative sounds great, Might be good for someone who has no direction or qualifications. Not say the likes of Joe Bloggs who has experience in a field and is just waiting for another opportunity to be accepted in the same field.

Also don't go saying that this is taking a job from someone who wants it, I see weeds in gardens all over Auckland and rubbish piling up on beaches. From what I can tell they are not filling these possible positions with willing workers. Anything is better than sitting around, and also it gives someone a job to supervise these people....

If you want to sit around then you should be able to afford it off your own back. I also like the idea of doing 3 month work stints then jumping back on the job seekers bene for a few months to hit it off again but heck. If I want a holiday then I'll save up for it and take annual leave. If you can't get permanent work then go find something that offers that as the system shouldn't be there to support peoples choice of lifestyle but support peoples basic needs.

MikeAqua

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#2019826 21-May-2018 14:37

The young woman in the article is someone whose mother cared and who had the attitude and backbone to be come through a selection process. She found her compass and she is on her way.

I'm not sure how reflective she is of long term unemployed. How many of them are actually employable?

If you ever work somewhere that offers the sorts of jobs no-one really wants, you meet people that are at the bottom end of the job seeker market. these are people put forward by MSD as candidates. Probably not their most promising clients, but not their most challenging clients either.

Many are only just employable. What are the people they don't send to vacancies like?

Mike

Rikkitic

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#2019827 21-May-2018 14:37

When I say work for dole, I mean minimum wage (or better), not what people currently get. Maybe a better way of phrasing it would be guaranteed employment. In my universe, everyone who could work would be made to do so, but they would also be properly paid. There would be another arrangement for those who genuinely could not work.

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MikeAqua

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#2019831 21-May-2018 14:42

Rikkitic:

When I say work for dole, I mean minimum wage (or better), not what people currently get. Maybe a better way of phrasing it would be guaranteed employment. In my universe, everyone who could work would be made to do so, but they would also be properly paid. There would be another arrangement for those who genuinely could not work.

The trouble is they have to work for someone and do so safely.

Pity the poor person who has to supervise a bunch of people who don't really want to work.

Mike

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Coil

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#2019837 21-May-2018 14:47

MikeAqua:

Rikkitic:

When I say work for dole, I mean minimum wage (or better), not what people currently get. Maybe a better way of phrasing it would be guaranteed employment. In my universe, everyone who could work would be made to do so, but they would also be properly paid. There would be another arrangement for those who genuinely could not work.

The trouble is they have to work for someone and do so safely.

Pity the poor person who has to supervise a bunch of people who don't really want to work.

I suppose that then begs the question of where the line is drawn, What if these unwilling workers don't want to work so inturn they get no benefit and start to live on the streets. Do we create some institution for them? Do we just create an Island and have a real life version of hunger games where we drop in care packages of food and weapons? Do we put them in mental institutions?

What do ya do. Probably best we all not argue this here cause I am sure we will end up with a few certain people in strife...

MikeB4

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#2019860 21-May-2018 15:02

There are already sanctions available to deal with those who unreasonably refuse work or training. The use of these sanctions is used with caution and for good reason. It is interesting that people blame the safety net for the fall when the fall is caused elsewhere. Do we blame TNF inhibitors for Ankylosing Spondylitis? no we blame an error in DNA and an immune system that is broken.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

frankv

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#2019864 21-May-2018 15:05

Coil:

I suppose that then begs the question of where the line is drawn, What if these unwilling workers don't want to work so inturn they get no benefit and start to live on the streets.

Perhaps there's a social responsibility to ensure that workplaces are not only safe, but also rewarding to work at, so that workers *are* willing. "Rewarding" in both senses; not only cash so you get to do what you want when you're not working, but also places of useful endeavour where people feel happy.

Rikkitic

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#2019868 21-May-2018 15:10

Being able to look forward to something better after a certain period can also be an important compensation for doing work that is inherently low in job satisfaction.

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