LED bulbs and insulation gap

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Killerkiwi2005

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#143321 10-Apr-2014 13:29

With regular bulbs in down lights you need an insulation gap, is this still required with newer LED bulbs?

Or would you still need to replace the whole unit?

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#1022847 10-Apr-2014 13:39

I'm not an expert, but I think it's as much the fitting as the bulb. Remember you're not just doing what seems sensible, if you do something sensible that goes against the law and the house burns down you could potentially get your claim refused. Also if you get proper fittings they're properly sealed, whereas older fittings called "sealed" can still be 5% open.

I'd get new fittings. I did get new fittings, actually.

mattwnz

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#1022870 10-Apr-2014 14:00

I imagine the insulation gap is based on the fittings not the bulbs, as if you are using B22 or E27 bulbs, then someone may put an incandescent into it by mistake, and burn down the house.
Best to consult with a lighting expert.

Killerkiwi2005

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#1022910 10-Apr-2014 14:51

mattwnz: I imagine the insulation gap is based on the fittings not the bulbs, as if you are using B22 or E27 bulbs, then someone may put an incandescent into it by mistake, and burn down the house.
Best to consult with a lighting expert.

Exactly what I as thinking of....I was just wondering if it was the fitting or the bulb.

I think Ill just replace the fittings seems safer long term

Swanny

107 posts

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#1022969 10-Apr-2014 16:14

A little story for you:

A colleague of mine has a rental. He put those halogen strip type lights (I think it was the ones you surface mount) in a few years back when they were the in thing. One of his tenants put a ~250w bulb in the fitting rated for 100w. It smouldered for several days before eventually setting off a smoke alarm which woke someone up who wasn't even supposed to be around that weekend... Tennant then claimed landlord supplied the bulb etc etc.

An example where people aren't always so smart when it comes to putting the right bulbs in fittings.

I put these in my house:

http://www.qualityledlighting.co.nz/gallery/Slimline%2BRange/slimline-14w/276407

wazzab

84 posts

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#1023003 10-Apr-2014 16:45

I replaced some older recessed with new LEDs - checked with sparky and there were new standards that came out in 2012. All down-lights sold have a classification on the box about insulation closeness/abutment.

Here is a nice article : http://www.thelightingcentre.co.nz/Articles/downlightstandard.htm

mattwnz

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#1023010 10-Apr-2014 16:58

Killerkiwi2005:
mattwnz: I imagine the insulation gap is based on the fittings not the bulbs, as if you are using B22 or E27 bulbs, then someone may put an incandescent into it by mistake, and burn down the house.
Best to consult with a lighting expert.

Exactly what I as thinking of....I was just wondering if it was the fitting or the bulb.

I think Ill just replace the fittings seems safer long term

Just make sure the fitting you get is allows you to also change the LED bulbs. Many are all on one, which means if the bulb or electronics in it fail, then you have to replace the whole fitting, which for many requires an electrician to come in and rewire up a new one. The manufacturers say that they should last 10 + years, being LED, but int eh real world, you may get power surges or the parts may fail. Not to mention if you can still buy the identical fitting. Nothing worse that light fittings that don't match.

You can get this fitting which is IC rated http://www.halcyonlights.co.nz/fluorescent/r633-w which I believe allows you to install LED energy savers, and I believe you can also insulate over these fittings with certain insulation. However check with the manufacturer first on all this, and what insulation you can use. I believe only certain insulation can be used.

Niel

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#1023036 10-Apr-2014 18:01

Swanny: I put these in my house:
http://www.qualityledlighting.co.nz/gallery/Slimline%2BRange/slimline-14w/276407

Last night I've paid for another 15 of these (in 4000K) to finish off my house after installing 10 about 3 months ago. Really good.

Regarding all-in-one vs. replaceable, the LEDs of a quality fitting will last a very long time but the power supply can fail as it is exposed to surges. The ones I've fit have the power supply separate and is a standard 300mA constant current driver so replaceable.

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Niel

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#1023039 10-Apr-2014 18:05

I do not like to cover LED fittings with insulation even though they are rated for it. There is very little heat loss (compared to other leaks in your house) and not covering means the LEDs last even longer. Maybe down South, but not in Auckland. Going to a fully sealed fitting already cuts all the draft which is a great improvement.

You can never have enough Volvos!

timmmay

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#1023048 10-Apr-2014 18:40

One of my less than year old light LED lights was flashing the other day, but it stopped the next day. The supplied (lighting direct) doesn't have exactly that model. Lesson learned: buy spares. Hopefully I don't need it.

Niel

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#1023108 10-Apr-2014 20:53

timmmay: One of my less than year old light LED lights was flashing the other day, but it stopped the next day. The supplied (lighting direct) doesn't have exactly that model. Lesson learned: buy spares. Hopefully I don't need it.

Sounds like a dry solder joint. If it can be opened then I'll be keen to snoop around and try fix it for you.

Quality LED Lights in Wellington has kept the same style for a few years now as they deal with only one factory, only changed the LEDs for higher brightness as they come available. And because the power supply is not part of the fitting, they can do that without having to resubmit for compliance testing (the fitting itself is extra low voltage, not mains). Retail ships however go for whatever is the cheapest they can source and (just like tiles and carpets) it is in their interest to change the style so you cannot replace only one with a matching style.

You can never have enough Volvos!

timmmay

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#1023115 10-Apr-2014 21:04

Thanks Niel, I'd just return it since it's under warranty, unless they can't replace in that case maybe I'll get in touch - much appreciated.

Not having a replacement in the same style would backfire I think. I'm not particularly shy about voicing my opinions, though I always start very friendly and nice.

mattwnz

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#1023166 10-Apr-2014 22:39

Niel: I do not like to cover LED fittings with insulation even though they are rated for it. There is very little heat loss (compared to other leaks in your house) and not covering means the LEDs last even longer. Maybe down South, but not in Auckland. Going to a fully sealed fitting already cuts all the draft which is a great improvement.

For the all in one fittings, I too wouldn't want to cover up the fitting, as they appear to release heat through the top. However with the downlighers which the convential b22 and e27 fittings, I can really see that much of a problem, becuase there will be an open airgap between the bulb and the housing. There maybe a slight heat gain, but as those types of LED bulbs are now $20 for (philips and panasonic brands (and will come down in price over time), a little bit of loss in the life may not be the end of the world.

mattwnz

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#1023167 10-Apr-2014 22:43

timmmay: One of my less than year old light LED lights was flashing the other day, but it stopped the next day. The supplied (lighting direct) doesn't have exactly that model. Lesson learned: buy spares. Hopefully I don't need it.

Spares only go so far though, you don't know how many may fail, and after how long. Theoretically you shouldn't have had any problem with any of them for 10 years. But if one fails prematurely, others could too, so you don't know how many spares you may need, prior to getting them all replaced at the end of the 10-15 year life cycle.
That is certainly one of the concerns I have with those types of all in one lights. The sales person will never tell you of that pitfall.

rapt

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#1025785 15-Apr-2014 19:50

The led bulbs that go in to standard fittings still need airflow to cool them as they don't have the larger heatsink that complete sealed fittings have.
Also as said above there is a chance that the led bulb could be replaced by someone with a 100W halogen and cause a fire if you have moved the insulation.

mattwnz

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#1025796 15-Apr-2014 20:26

rapt: The led bulbs that go in to standard fittings still need airflow to cool them as they don't have the larger heatsink that complete sealed fittings have.
Also as said above there is a chance that the led bulb could be replaced by someone with a 100W halogen and cause a fire if you have moved the insulation.

I presume that there is enough of an air gap in those fittings, as they are designed for energy savers.It does make me wonder though how you can sell IC light fittings that are designed to olnly take energy savers, when there is the risk that someone may install an incandescent in them, due to them having standard b22 and e27 fittings in them. If they perhaps phased out the incandescent bulbs like they were supposed to do a few years ago, then that may have solved that problem.

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